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Author Topic:   The Gory Details of 'Miracles'
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 46 of 123 (374408)
01-04-2007 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by RickJB
01-04-2007 12:10 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
RickJB writes:
Just to clear this up, are you talking about a layer of wax cosmetics over the skin, or a fully-sculpted mask?
If there is a layer of wax over the skin it might help stop decomposition by clogging the pores. It might also prevent discoloration due to exposure. I have heard some saints have a light wax coating, and others have a full wax mask. In either case the question was whether that alone can stop decomposition of a corpse, or just pretty them up. I think that wax is used by modern funeral homes, but usually formaldahyde is also. So, what, if anything, is under the wax?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by RickJB, posted 01-04-2007 12:10 PM RickJB has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 01-04-2007 1:50 PM anastasia has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 47 of 123 (374414)
01-04-2007 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by anastasia
01-04-2007 1:34 PM


anastasia writes:
In either case the question was whether that alone can stop decomposition of a corpse, or just pretty them up.
I would think that any kind of tampering, whether to "stop decomposition of a corpse, or just pretty them up" would constitute fraud.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by anastasia, posted 01-04-2007 1:34 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by anastasia, posted 01-04-2007 2:01 PM ringo has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 48 of 123 (374421)
01-04-2007 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
01-04-2007 1:50 PM


Ringo writes:
I would think that any kind of tampering, whether to "stop decomposition of a corpse, or just pretty them up" would constitute fraud.
No, it may be decorative and have nothing to do with the relative decomposition of the body.
Wax is common in cosmetics in general, but more so for the lips since it will clog pores. A dead person whether decomposed or not is still dead and will not have the same glow as a living person. In the funeral business cosmetics and lighting are used to make the person 'prettied up' for viewing. There are other traits of a corpse such as relaxing of muscles of the mouth and sunken features that might be hidden with a wax mask, but certainly do not stop the body from decomposing.
Formaldahyde is only a deterrant to decay, but not permanant.
A low ambient temperature and low moisture are other factors which slow decay.
It is possible that some saints are refridgerated? But some of the older ones may have been around before temperature was even considered in preservation, and exposed to high temps at some point before they were exhumed or while on display.

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 Message 47 by ringo, posted 01-04-2007 1:50 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 01-04-2007 2:09 PM anastasia has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 49 of 123 (374425)
01-04-2007 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by anastasia
01-04-2007 2:01 PM


anastasia writes:
... it may be decorative and have nothing to do with the relative decomposition of the body.
But we are talking about "decoration" that was done long after death - decoration that was done to make the body look uncorrupted. Whether it was done to fleece people of their tourist dollars or not, the evidence is certainly tainted.
How can we determine whether the preservation was natural or supernatural if somebody has been poking and prodding the evidence?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by anastasia, posted 01-04-2007 2:01 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by anastasia, posted 01-04-2007 2:41 PM ringo has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 50 of 123 (374442)
01-04-2007 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ringo
01-04-2007 2:09 PM


Ringo writes:
How can we determine whether the preservation was natural or supernatural if somebody has been poking and prodding the evidence?
Well, yes, that may make it more difficult to analyze the bodies, but then again the wax is only on the hands and face.

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 Message 49 by ringo, posted 01-04-2007 2:09 PM ringo has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 51 of 123 (374443)
01-04-2007 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by anastasia
01-04-2007 2:41 PM


anastasia writes:
... the wax is only on the hands and face.
If that's true, then any question of the wax's preserving qualities is moot.
... that may make it more difficult to analyze the bodies....
There has been ample oppurtunity to analyze the bodies. We would not be speculating here about "maybe this" or "maybe that" if the analysis had been done.
Any reluctance on the part of the "owners" to have a proper analysis done casts further suspicion on their own belief in the authenticity of the "miracles".

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 52 of 123 (374547)
01-04-2007 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by anastasia
01-03-2007 12:54 PM


Re: The Answer's in Anastasia
So, Rob, what I asked was; if Jesus cleared up this mystery by saying "the flesh counts for nothing" why then did the Jews still turn away? It is clear they thought he was speaking of cannibalism, and literally He was, and it was a stumbling block. But you are not the final authority on interpreting the other senses of scripture. There is nothing wrong with taking Jesus words literally, and simply because of the number of times He repeated His point, it seems wise to do so. The 'stumbling block' here may be in not allowing Jesus to show us how His literal words shall be fulfilled.
I was a way for a couple days, and thought you might have responded differently than this.
You don't think I am the final authority in interpreting scriture? Well neither do I. The final authority is the Bible itself. It interprets itself when put into total context. If we want to know the whole truth, we do not throw away peices of the puzzle. That would be counterproductive to say the least!
We must take all of God's word and put it together...
What I find interesting is that we are so easily tempted to take some of Jesus' words litterally, but throw out those that do not conform to our personal understadnding or beliefs. Whole institutions fall into this trap. Personally, I take all of Jesus' words litterally. If there is something in scipture that contradicts my own understanding thus far, most often I find that it has been my understanding that needed to conform.
We don't have to agree on this Anastasia, but allow me to explain. And please do consider what I say in the spirit intended.
When we look at Jesus' words in John:
John 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Now compare that to Luke:
Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
Ok, my point is (beyond what I covered in my last post) that Jesus did not say, 'Do this , so you may have life in you', He said, 'Do this in remembrance of me.
I was raised catholic remember. And alter boy and the whole bit. Not one did I ever taste flesh and blood. I tasted wine and unleaven bread. it hink that if the communion was litterally the flesh and blood of Christ, our palate would be able to distinguish that.
Remember that under the Old Testament, the priests would offer the burnt offering and then the priests would eat the meat. This is the pictur being painted by Christ. Only He (being the High Priest) offered Himself as the attoning sacrifce once and for all.
And just as the Ark of the covenant had two Cheribim on each side of the Mercy Seat, also, the empty tomb had two angels on each side.
Their are many parrallels like these between the Old Covenant and the New because the Old was an Archetype of the New. The Old was symbolic of what would take place in the future and Christ's life was symbolic of the Old.
So it is symbolic Anastasia. We don't have a sacrificial system any longer because Christ fulfilled it and the law. We are the new priests and only do these things in remembrance of His final sacrifice.
Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
So think about it... It doesn't mean that Catholics are not Christians. One of my favorite theologians was Catholic and He was most certainly a man of Spiritual discernment. Being born again is not dependent upon the denomination of our Church, it is dependent upon the individual and God. It just means that like all organized churches, they have missed parts of the truth and need to be flexible.
God does new things all the time in the Bible, because people love to try and keep Him or put Him in a box, but He is not containable.
If we want to feed on Christ and continue to grow and have life, then we must feed on the truth wherever it may lead. The way is blocked only by our own bias. But He tracks us like a hound; a messenger here, a billboard there. Reality is always there threatening to call our bluffs.
For our sake as well as His, He succeeds.
His will be done, not mine.

If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by anastasia, posted 01-03-2007 12:54 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by anastasia, posted 01-04-2007 7:03 PM Rob has replied
 Message 75 by Nighttrain, posted 01-05-2007 7:49 PM Rob has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 53 of 123 (374553)
01-04-2007 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Rob
01-04-2007 6:31 PM


Re: The Answer's in Anastasia
scottness writes:
Ok, my point is (beyond what I covered in my last post) that Jesus did not say, 'Do this , so you may have life in you', He said, 'Do this in remembrance of me.
He also said 'this is My Blood, of the New and everlasting covenant, which will be shed for you and for many, fot he remission of sins'.
So I must wonder if we should take those words literally, and then with;
'Do this in remembrance of Me'...it seems pretty obvious that Jesus wanted us to DO this (a law) so this;
Only He (being the High Priest) offered Himself as the attoning sacrifce once and for all.
Is turned into 'perpetually and for many'.
I was raised catholic remember. And alter boy and the whole bit. Not one did I ever taste flesh and blood. I tasted wine and unleaven bread. it hink that if the communion was litterally the flesh and blood of Christ, our palate would be able to distinguish that.
I don't remember anything in the Bible about how disgusted the Apostles were at tasting flesh and blood either.
Sybolism is fine fine fine. But symbolism is not worth having a new covenant over and does not give life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Rob, posted 01-04-2007 6:31 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Rob, posted 01-04-2007 7:33 PM anastasia has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 54 of 123 (374557)
01-04-2007 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by anastasia
01-04-2007 7:03 PM


Re: The Answer's in Anastasia
But symbolism is not worth having a new covenant over and does not give life.
Anastasia, I can't believe you're having such a difficult time with this....
Of course the symbolism doesn't give life, Jesus does. And that life is Spirit. God is Spirit, and that is more real than the material. That is what the material world is made of. And Like I said, a microscope cannot discover this. Rather it takes a far more sophisticated and sensitive instrument; you!
That's what being born of the Spirit is all about. The rituals we perform are important only as physical reminders of the Spiritual reality that Christ revealed. That's why He said, 'The flesh counts for nothing, the words I speak to you are Spirit and they are life.
When He said, 'You must eat my flesh and drink my blood, He was speaking of a spiritual reality in physical terms. Spirit is ideational not material. It is etherial, not corporeal. His words were a physical metaphor for spiritual reality.
That is why so many could not accept it. To be frank (and I apologize for the cut) no one in their right mind could take his words to be litteral. The Old testament reality of eating the flesh of the burnt offering was symbolic of the coming Spiritual meal and communion with God as per the new birth.
Remember what Jesus said to Satan in the dessert?... "Man cannot live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God."
That's why I said, you consume Christ in the same way you consumed Arithmatic when it was fed to you. Not precisely the same of course, but an excellent analogy.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." 9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. 10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?
Don't respond.... think about it.

If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by anastasia, posted 01-04-2007 7:03 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by anastasia, posted 01-04-2007 8:54 PM Rob has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 123 (374561)
01-04-2007 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by RickJB
01-03-2007 3:27 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
Apparently the face is a wax mask that was added in 1925. Underneath that she ain't going to be looking too pretty.
Well, that certainly adds another dimension to the debate. At the same time, if she really was rotting away underneath the layer of wax, I assume a layer of glycerin would seep through after the cells die. I would expect with or without the wax it would seep through. So she either isn't decaying very rapidly, isn't decaying at all, or her caretakers have removed all of the glycerin.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by RickJB, posted 01-03-2007 3:27 PM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 123 (374564)
01-04-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by anastasia
01-03-2007 4:06 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
How long can a body last in wax? Longer than normal?
I don't know. I was wondering that myself. As far as all of this goes, I'm neither a believer or an unbeliever. I fully believe that God is capable of all of it if He were so inclined. At the same time, I can't say whether this is an elaborate hoax or the real deal.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by anastasia, posted 01-03-2007 4:06 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by anastasia, posted 01-04-2007 8:33 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 57 of 123 (374570)
01-04-2007 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Hyroglyphx
01-04-2007 8:02 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
Yeah, it is kind of a dead end, nemesis.
Wax is used all the time in preparing bodies in funeral homes, but I don't think it does much in the way of preservation.
I can't say I believe or dont't either. If there are such thing as miracles they will never be proven; that is the same as proving God exists.
I haven't found any conclusive scientific reports, the closest I have come is that there is low or non-existant levels of the bacteria that causes decomposition in these bodies. That in itself is not unheard of, but the causes are still unknown in these cases.
Since it was once a sign of sainthood to be found fresh in the grave, there are probably many frauds that have been perpetrated through the years, and seperating the fake from the real, if it does exist, would be pretty hard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-04-2007 8:02 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-04-2007 9:05 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 58 of 123 (374573)
01-04-2007 8:46 PM


Russia has kept ol' V.I. Lenin on display and "incorruptible" for over 80 years now - though I suppose they own up to some formaldehyde in the deal. The technology is around anyway...

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 59 of 123 (374575)
01-04-2007 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Rob
01-04-2007 7:33 PM


Re: The Answer's in Anastasia
scottness writes:
Anastasia, I can't believe you're having such a difficult time with this....
Well all I can say is better men? than I have had an equally difficult time
Personally I have a hard time believing that God would allow this doctrine to exist for at least 1500 years before someone discovered the 'truth'. Maybe you can look in some history books and find out which man you can ascribe this new revelation to. Whether ancient or modern, you must eventually find someone who can be named as the first opposer to the doctrine. I will look for you if you like.
Of course the symbolism doesn't give life, Jesus does.
yes
He was speaking of a spiritual reality in physical terms.
yes
That is why so many could not accept it. To be frank (and I apologize for the cut) no one in their right mind could take his words to be litteral.
But they can take the creation story and the Tower of Babel as literal? To be frank, there are still so many who can not accept it.
Anyway, this is not a conversion thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Rob, posted 01-04-2007 7:33 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Rob, posted 01-04-2007 9:23 PM anastasia has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 123 (374581)
01-04-2007 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by anastasia
01-04-2007 8:33 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
I can't say I believe or don't either. If there are such thing as miracles they will never be proven; that is the same as proving God exists.
Yep... That's pretty much the way it goes. I remember vividly the very first time I met the Spirit. And the description I attempt to give in that meeting may sound coined. To an unbeliever it may sound trite and they probably thought that I only saw what I wanted to see. But, whatever, I know what happened to me. I don't need affirmation from a third party. The event was for me, and me alone. Its up to the third party to either believe my testimony or not.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by anastasia, posted 01-04-2007 8:33 PM anastasia has not replied

  
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