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Author | Topic: Homosexuality, the natural choice? (Gay Animals are Common) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
RAZD wrote:
Just curious: Are there any observations of male bonobos giving each other oral or anal sex? Look at bonobos and the way they use sex to defuse tension between members in thier groups. ”Hoot Mon
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
RAZD, thanks for the info on evidence of gay bonobos behavior. Maybe I should ask if there are ANY observations of males of ANY species, other than humans, that have oral or anal sex with each other. The fact that human males do it may reflect some kind of perverse bottlenecking brought on by civilization. I'll hazard a guess that pre-civilized humans, in their tribal organizations, did not have gay sex, but I have nothing to support my speculation.
”Hoot Mon
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
Setting aside Lesbians for a moment. I think homosexuality in human males arises from either nurturing influences or a natural predisposition, which would seem to be genetic. I don't think nurturing alone will do the trick”if nurturing encourages the gay gene to express itself, the trait is still genetically predisposed. If there is a gay gene on the Y chromosome or any where else I suppose scientists will locate it. Aferwards I expect them to learn how to turn it on and off. And after that being gay will be entirely a matter of choice.
”Hoot Mon
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
Scaryfish, re:
I had heard that male-male ram behaviour included anal penetration, but I can't find the reference for that. But here is an article I did find (although because I'm not a student any more I can't look up the actual paper, but the title makes it fairly explicit).
Thanks. I've been curious about this, mainly bercause I was chasing an idea that civilization and its consequences of excess may account for such sexually deviant behavior. Given these occurances in other mammals I'd have to say the origin of gay behavior is genetic. I suspect that no amount of gay nurturing in a human male will cause him to become gay UNLESS he has gay genes.Erwin, J. & Maple, T., 1976 Ambisexual behavior with male-male anal penetration in male rhesus monkeys. ARCH. SEXUAL BEHAV. 5(1): 9-14. ”Hoot Mon
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
Chiroptera, re:
Probably a bad guess, seeing that there have been (and probably still are in the areas that have not yet been saturated by Christian or Muslim missionaries) lots of "pre-civilized" human societies where pederasty, ritual male homosexuality, and even non-ritual male homosexuality have been an accepted part of the tribal organization.
Ignorance. I was proceeding on the assumption that male homosexuality was extremely rare in nature, maybe even exclusive to humans. (I tend to see female homosexuality as a different thing.) Obviously, now, gay behavior does not seem to be exclusive to human males. What I was looking for was any evidence suggesting that gay behavior was a consequence of nurturing or the environment, as opposed to being entirely genetically predisposed. What I found was evidence to the contrary”maybe womb nurturing (hormones), or maybe tribal nurturing (ritualistic), or maybe peer nurturing (male bonding). I really don't know about gay genes at this point. I'm just curious; since you have nothing to support your speculation, what led you to these conclusions? ”Hoot Mon
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
Tazmanian Devil, re:
And the fact that an experimental procedure could "cure" a gay animal of homosexuality tells me that at this point it is simply more than just a choice, wouldn't you say?
Frankly, I don't know. If a gay gene could be switched off then I certainly would agree. But what about other experimental procedures? I'm not sure. I suppose I could submit to castration, rendering me a sexually neutral eunuch, but does this mean that I am a male heterosexual BY CHOICE? ”Hoot Mon
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
Chiroptera, re:
Hoot Mon wrote:
Heh. I think your choice of porn is skewing your view point. I was proceeding on the assumption that male homosexuality was extremely rare in nature, maybe even exclusive to humans. (I tend to see female homosexuality as a different thing.) Certainly, any real study of actual human behavior suggests a very complicated picture. Not to disparage human studies; neurology is interesting in its own right, and who can't help but be interested in human sexuality? What makes me cringe, though, is the attempt to bring this into the political arena. Not only are these studies ultimately irrelevant to the current civil rights/civil liberties debate, but by the time what might be carefully nuanced scientific conclusions make it into the public awareness it has pretty much become junk.
The out-of-the-closet gays seem to be playing at the political arena. It's not a show I particularly care to see, but I don't disdain them. No gay person should ever be abused for being gay, and I don't count the current marraige laws as a form of gay abuse. (Why can't they just be civilly united?) The issue of being gay by choice vs. being gay by nature IS relevant. If it has a genetic component then this issue over choice will be varified when the gene(s) can be switched off. If it has other complications, as you contend, then of course the problem is greater. Maybe there is no "problem" at all. Maybe gays are natural. That's why I wondered about gay behavior in other animals. Not being gay myself, I see it as an aberration. Maybe I should accept it as fringe characteristric, like musical savants and dwarfism. I'm still muttering over this issue, trying to keep an over mind. ”Hoot Mon
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
Why can't they just be civilly united?
I dunno. Why can't the darkies just have their own drinking fountains? "Her Comes the Bride" just isn't what it used to be. Today she might even have a penis. I suppose "Here Comes The Bitch" will be accorded some legal urgency, when humans petition to marry their dogs. ”Hoot Mon Edited by Hoot Mon, : tiffles
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
All right, I carried the analogy a little too far. This entire issue will evaporate like hot sweat when gay-gene therapy becomes a clinical out-patience procedure.
”Hoot Mon
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
crashfrog, re:
I don't see where the gays lose anything by gaining a civil-union status. What, besides the 1000+ Federal rights accorded to, and only to, married couples? And to continue the same analogy - what do the African-Americans lose by gaining their own public water fountains?
I dunno. MLK died before I was able to ask him that question. ”Hoot Mon
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
Tasmanian Devil, re:
The real issue is so what if it is 100% choice? It makes no difference if tomorrow we find out that gay people are gay without any biological reason whatsoever. Since when did we as a society have the right to exclude other people from certain rights simply because they made a concious choice?
No problem there. I'm not out to take any RIGHTS away from anyone.
In other words, whether homosexuality is a choice or not should have no bearing on what rights homosexuals should or shouldn't get. A few years ago, I hosted a gay couple from Norway who had 2 adopted sons with them. The affections they had for each other and the love they had for their non-biological sons made me had no doubt that these people probably made better parents than most straight couples out there, including myself.
Once again, why would gays have to be "married" if a civil union ceremony with equivalent rights was available to them. It comes down to a just a single word, which is NOT a right. (Remember, I want gays to have ALL the rights they deserve.) I see no reason why these people who are committing their lives to a monogomous relationship can't be legally recognized and yet straight people like me can marry, get a divorce, remarry, get another divorce, and remarry again and again and again. And since you took the liberty to post one of your gay soap operas, I'll post one of my poems along the same lines: Doe Bay Is OK What’s queer about Doe Bay, they say,is bathing in the buff. Those mineral springs will do strange things to tenderize your duff. The other day I did Doe Bayand took the mineral splash. We ate kumquats and microdots and it was quite a bash. They passed a bottle of something around for everyone to sip. I watched it skip from lip to lip. I went ahead and I took a nip and then began to wonder if maybe I was rash. You see, while in the drink I had happen to think about the ones among us who carried germs and maybe worms and probably toenail fungus. What I want to say about Doe Bayis how nice the people are, and how politely they invited me to put out my cigar. And when I abused the pop machine, left my litter on the green, called my mate a bloody queen, and failed to use the camp latrine, they never lost their cool. We chilled out in the pool. So who’s to say about Doe Baythat being gay is not OK? Besides, they were only a fraction. Plenty were there in the pool that day who were not gay and didn’t stray from heterosexual action. Hoot Mon
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
crashfrog wrote:
If I were a black person I might be insulted by your remark. Please, how should racial rights extend all the way to homosexual rights under the law? Aren't you mismatching your principles? I'm pretty sure blacks are black by nature, and not by choice. I don't know yet if the same thing is true about gays. That's why I bothered to ask if gay-ness occurs naturally in other species. Apparently it does. But I would not be so inclined to equate racial GENETICS with sexual PREFERENCE, simply because they are matters of different contexts. No, you're just avoiding my question. It's a simple one, but apparently it was too subtle, so let me ask it explicitly - if we rejected "seperate but equal" accomodations for black people, why should we accept them for gay people? ”hoot Mon
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
Hoot Mon wrote: Porn? How so? the bias that two gay men having sex or kissing is gross but two gay women are not sorry but i find your bigotry sickining. for someone who's "trying" to have an openmind you already show you already closed the door on this issue”the fact is if it is found it nature it is part of nature and not an abberration”yes because they are gay or a dwarf or anything they are fringe and should be ignored till they are a problem for you.
Gosh, I didn’t know I had such enormous powers!
my faith in humanity just went down a notch yes because being gay is a bad thing and somehow effects your life and well being .
Whoever said that?
when people are hated for the people they love, the human race has lost all hope of ever being happy ever again
Maybe because He’s gay? Has anyone ever bothered to ask? and when it matters who loves you, instead of that fact that you have people who love you, i have lost all hope for humanity it makes me sick inside that what sex you are, what color, religion, or ethicity matters in anything when it comes to compassion and love for other peopleit just makes me want to cry and ask god why he doesn't do anything ”Hoot Mon
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
Tasmanian Devil wrote:
You have been beating around the bushes, but it is clear to everyone here that deep down you equate homosexuality to something like leprosy and gay people to lepers.
Nah. You don't really know what's "deep down" inside me, do you? I'm only asking if gay-ness is "natural," as in "biologically natural." And there IS evidence suggesting that it IS natural. The alternative, of course, is that homosexuality is achieved by choice. That's my direction of inquiry. Why is it wrong for me to ask these questions? And then you wrote:
it just makes me want to cry and ask god why he doesn't do anything Then I wrote:
Maybe because He’s gay? Has anyone ever bothered to ask?
Then he wrote:
Maybe who's gay? Are you talking about me? If so, you should be aware that I have no gay tendency whatsoever. If I ever get the urge, I'll be the first to let you know. In the mean time, perhaps you should consider that not everyone who sees an injustice in the gay rights issue is gay.
Opps. Are you really paying attention here? ”Hoot Mon
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
Chiroptera, re:
While you're muttering, I'll remind our readers that unlike most other animals, humans don't have "natural" behaviors. In particular, humnans don't have "natural" sexual behaviors.
Ah! I see the rub. You and I differ on a key point”I think humans are ENTIRELY natural, and you think we are UNNATURAL, at least in part. Humans seem to have natural desire to live among other humans, and maybe there's a natural desire to have sex with another human being, but even these seem to be few and far between. What behaviors become "natural" and "unnatural" are largely a matter of the culture. What is the alternative if humans are not regarded as "natural"? I don't see much that sets us apart from other animals. In truth, I'm not even sure if we are the most advanced species. (Termites and orcas are impressive, too.) ”Hoot Mon
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