The Gory Details of 'Miracles'

perhaps i should explain the joke. i picked a verse that had the same wording as your original statement, but was actually about something else. i was saying that it's nothing i haven't heard before, and is just another futile human venture.

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You mean because in one place in the Bible God says:Yet in another, it says, 'There is nothing new under the sun.'?You think that is a dead end and a clear contradiction?

no, i was saying your position is nothing new. i was basically yawning at you.

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Not entirely true Rob. The Creed, like the Bible, has been subjected to various interpretations. Unlike the Bible, the intentions of the authors of the Creed when writing it are historically known.The Nicene Creed was an attempt to refute specified doctrines of heterodox churches, and to distinguish heretical and schismatic churches from the One True Faith.At this time various denominations which are plainly heretical and/or schismatic profess the Creed using only a loose interpretation of the words. To be more specific, the phrase 'I believe in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church', is not used with the same intent (in some sects) of describing the marks of the church on earth, that it be universal and apostolic, that the Catholic church had. There is no one unity in doctrine, but rather a symbolic union of the faithful who may possess opposing doctrines. There is no apostolic succession of bishops, but a symbolic union in that all the churches whether schismatic or not, were founded on the teachings of the Apostles. Several sects aside from the RCC, such as Eastern Orthodox and some Anglicans, profess the same catholicity of doctrine and belief in apostolic succession, but the majority are heretical in doctrine and seperated from the heirarchy.Thus the use of the creed by all of christianity is an attempt to unite under a false premise and misrepresentation or denial of its intentions.

I see. But my appeal was not leveled to you but to Nighttrain. If you are bored with that, perhaps you and I can discuss other things.What questions plague your mind?

That's nice Marie, thanks for that!

Anastasia, I have to do this. I have to confront you here. Please take it in the spirit intended. It is not an attack. It is an exhortation given in love. If I am wrong here, then I am wrong in true ignorance and infancy. My intentions are pure to the best of my ability to understand these things.You've given tremendous credence to Nighttrain's contention 'that christians agreeing amongst themsleves is evidence that God's Spirit is not revealed'.But Christ Himself said the counsellor would come. And on Pentecost, it did! And not for the priestly and the righteous. But the Holy Spirit (the spirit of truth) came to give life to sinners. Everyone is welcome, and put on an even platform under God.Who's side are you on? The side of Catholism in terms of the Roman Catholic Church? Or the 'universal' concept that the word Catholic is defined by?Anastasia, your proclamation was in defense of your religion and not God.Many of these people are thinking with a mind of flesh. Why are you confusing them? It is our flesh that get's in the way of agreement. It is the carnal mind that causes divisions within the body. It is our need to be praised that makes us stop looking at the one and only begotton who is praise worthy.And all of it is allowed so that no man will glory in His presence. To refine us in the fire and remove our fig leaves. It is only in the humility of failure that we can repent. We are stongest when we are weak.Christ is the only one incorruptable and infallible. The Bible clearly says there are none righteous, not even one. That includes Mary btw! So our faith in men is misplaced.What is more important to you Marie? What the Bible says, or what Popes and bishops tell you it means?Men do not establish doctrine, God does.Men do not ordain preists, God does.Men do not define the terms, God does.And He uses men to do all of these things. Don't be deceived.Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."The truth is not a religion to be understood by the natural mind, it is understood by the conscious and gives sight when born of the Spirit of truth. If you do not understand that, then you are not mature. And that does not mean you are condemned but that you need to repent. and not to me or any other priest but to God thorugh the gate that Christ opened for you (see my Avatar).Perhaps I did you no service by praising your intelligence so many times. More and more every day I find serious failure on your part in comprehending Spiritual things.You want to be accepted more than you want truth. Please snap out of it!1Th 2:6 We were not looking for praise from men, not from you or anyone else.But I was. I confess it publically. You stoked my ego Marie and I welcomed you in. Now I regret it. Now my sin has made me and you stumble. We've talked about this before, remember?So, in that light, you are far more intelligent than I. I couldn't comprehend these things until I was born again. I was a complete dolt. But you appearently can follow much of it with only your natural mind.Don't be proud, be afraid.Jesus said very litterally (in spiritual terms), 'You must be Born again.'I am very frustrated by you Marie...There is nothing wrong with our cultures, traditions, and religions, but they must conform to the truth.We don't throw the parts of the Bible aside that don't conform to our religion... we throw the parts of our religion out that don't conform to the bible.Jesus said, 'He that loses his life for my sake will find it.' don't you see what that means?It means the same as when He said:Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.He is saying that by comparison, our love for Him must be the main focus in our lives. That is the heart of the Law!What is the greatest commandment Marie?Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" 27 He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" 28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."Truth must be first in our lives above all else. To hell with our investment in our own religions and philosophies.

Questions are not a disease.

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Rob, I will respond in detail later. Much of what you have written, though heart felt and appreciated, is more appropriate for a private communication.It is not my intent to undermine the good that you wish to accomplish. I only attempt to present facts in a spririt of debate, as my opinion alone, and not to arrive at a 'solution' for the benefit of others.My point is simply that the profession of the Creed by all of christianity is a proclamation of a Unity that none will practice. If a nation would say 'I value the proclamation of freedom of the US', and profess this same freedom in their speech, yet not allow for the physical fruition of it, it is a dead ideal.

Neither are answers.

The need to have answers can be a disease - aka addiction.A miracle loses its impact if we look too closely at the gory details. The Answer^TM sometimes is that there was no miracle at all, just a mundane event.

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Well, I don't like the analogy but I get your point. And this is the problem for many of the theological puzzles.This is the disjunction between the ideal, and the reality. This is the conflict between good and evil.The flesh looks for redmption now, but our faith, though seeing hope's for that which is not yet seen. That's why you misinterpret some things.We live in a world where evil is allowed some time, so the ideal will not be achieved in this life. Hence the new heaven and new earth as per the complete Revelation of Christ, chapter 21.You really need to read your Bible and get some good solid nourishment from a real pastor/teacher.And I offer this publicly only because it is the only way to answer the questions you put in the minds of the unbelieving by your post. That's why I said, 'that was nice! Thanks for that.' Because you inadvertently stepped on the Gospel.We must be more careful. I'm learning that the hard way myself so don't feel impuned. Carry on.

You've turned it around Ringo.The need to hide from the answer (the way, the truth, and the life) with fig leaves is the addiction. The need for God is not an addiction, it is admission of dependance. Just as food is not an addiction. it is a confession of unity with the God we were made for, lost by us, and recovered by God's grace.The need for independance is an addiction. An addiction to power, pride, and sin. It is an addiction to isolation. To wearing a mask. To pretending I'm ok.The Bible says we are slaves to sin but exhorts us to become slaves unto righteousness. The option to be like God and eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was never offered. In fact, that was the only thing forbidden. Everything else is ours. Who would want to live forever as God anyway, when instead we can enjoy the mystery and joy of childhood fascination? And not by the leadership of human parents who make mistakes, but by the leadership of a heavenly Father who is infallible.Can't we just let God be God? His will be done?If not, then He will honor us, and let us live without Him forever. Not His will but ours. But we will still not have the answers. We will just be alone in our own envious madness and quest for glory.I'd rather eat from the tree of life. It's not an addiction, it is the highest high there is. It is the peace that passeth understanding. It's the void we try to fill with all else in our desperation for liveliness. The God sized hole that drives us.It's the only real food for the hunger. And when you find it, you'll give up everything for it, and give your life to tell others the wonderful news.

That's like saying that the "need" to avoid heroin is an addiction. And I never said it was. I said that the need for answers can be an addiction. An addiction is a dependence. Independence from heroin is an addiction?-------------So anyway, miracles:If we "need" an Answer^TM to every question, the universe loses its wonder.We need to wonder before we can search for answers. Thinking that you have The Answer^TM already just short-circuits the whole process.In a world where everything is a miracle, miracles are redundant.

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Suit yourself.I just don't know what you're going to find to wear...