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Author Topic:   Homosexuality, the natural choice? (Gay Animals are Common)
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 61 of 306 (375215)
01-07-2007 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Taz
01-07-2007 9:03 PM


Re: Gay "marriage" & gay genes
when people are hated for the people they love, the human race has lost all hope of ever being happy ever again
and when it matters who loves you, instead of that fact that you have people who love you, i have lost all hope for humanity
it makes me sick inside that what sex you are, what color,religion, or ethicity matters in anything when it comes to compassion and love for other people
it just makes me want to cry and ask god why he doesn't do anything

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Taz, posted 01-07-2007 9:03 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Fosdick, posted 01-08-2007 12:29 PM ReverendDG has not replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 62 of 306 (375332)
01-08-2007 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by crashfrog
01-07-2007 8:16 PM


Re: a benefit or not ...
crashfrog, re:
I don't see where the gays lose anything by gaining a civil-union status.
What, besides the 1000+ Federal rights accorded to, and only to, married couples?
My idea of a "civil union" for gays allows them all the RIGHTS enjoyed by married heterosexuals. The only thing I object to is calling their civil union a "marriage." Why do they insist on this? If all of their rights are in place, as I prefer them to be, then what's the big problem?
And to continue the same analogy - what do the African-Americans lose by gaining their own public water fountains?
I dunno. MLK died before I was able to ask him that question.
”Hoot Mon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 01-07-2007 8:16 PM crashfrog has not replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 63 of 306 (375338)
01-08-2007 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Taz
01-07-2007 9:03 PM


Re: Gay "marriage" & gay genes
Tasmanian Devil, re:
The real issue is so what if it is 100% choice? It makes no difference if tomorrow we find out that gay people are gay without any biological reason whatsoever. Since when did we as a society have the right to exclude other people from certain rights simply because they made a concious choice?
In other words, whether homosexuality is a choice or not should have no bearing on what rights homosexuals should or shouldn't get.
No problem there. I'm not out to take any RIGHTS away from anyone.
A few years ago, I hosted a gay couple from Norway who had 2 adopted sons with them. The affections they had for each other and the love they had for their non-biological sons made me had no doubt that these people probably made better parents than most straight couples out there, including myself.
I see no reason why these people who are committing their lives to a monogomous relationship can't be legally recognized and yet straight people like me can marry, get a divorce, remarry, get another divorce, and remarry again and again and again.
Once again, why would gays have to be "married" if a civil union ceremony with equivalent rights was available to them. It comes down to a just a single word, which is NOT a right. (Remember, I want gays to have ALL the rights they deserve.)
And since you took the liberty to post one of your gay soap operas, I'll post one of my poems along the same lines:
Doe Bay Is OK
What’s queer about Doe Bay, they say,
is bathing in the buff.
Those mineral springs will do strange things
to tenderize your duff.
The other day I did Doe Bay
and took the mineral splash.
We ate kumquats and microdots
and it was quite a bash.
They passed a bottle of something around
for everyone to sip.
I watched it skip from lip to lip.
I went ahead and I took a nip
and then began to wonder
if maybe I was rash.
You see, while in the drink I had happen to think
about the ones among us
who carried germs and maybe worms
and probably toenail fungus.
What I want to say about Doe Bay
is how nice the people are,
and how politely they invited me
to put out my cigar.
And when I abused the pop machine,
left my litter on the green,
called my mate a bloody queen,
and failed to use the camp latrine,
they never lost their cool.
We chilled out in the pool.
So who’s to say about Doe Bay
that being gay is not OK?
Besides, they were only a fraction.
Plenty were there in the pool that day
who were not gay and didn’t stray
from heterosexual action.
Hoot Mon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Taz, posted 01-07-2007 9:03 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Taz, posted 01-08-2007 12:39 PM Fosdick has not replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 64 of 306 (375346)
01-08-2007 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by crashfrog
01-07-2007 9:30 PM


Re: Gay "marriage" & gay genes
crashfrog wrote:
No, you're just avoiding my question. It's a simple one, but apparently it was too subtle, so let me ask it explicitly - if we rejected "seperate but equal" accomodations for black people, why should we accept them for gay people?
If I were a black person I might be insulted by your remark. Please, how should racial rights extend all the way to homosexual rights under the law? Aren't you mismatching your principles? I'm pretty sure blacks are black by nature, and not by choice. I don't know yet if the same thing is true about gays. That's why I bothered to ask if gay-ness occurs naturally in other species. Apparently it does. But I would not be so inclined to equate racial GENETICS with sexual PREFERENCE, simply because they are matters of different contexts.
”hoot Mon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by crashfrog, posted 01-07-2007 9:30 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-08-2007 12:21 PM Fosdick has not replied
 Message 78 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2007 2:07 PM Fosdick has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 306 (375349)
01-08-2007 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Fosdick
01-08-2007 12:05 PM


Re: Gay "marriage" & gay genes
I'm pretty sure blacks are black by nature, and not by choice. I don't know yet if the same thing is true about gays.
You know, as always, there's a really easy way to test whether or not this is the case.
1) Go to the m4m section of your local craigslist. (Or w4w, if you are female.) Post an ad looking for NSA sex.
2) Meet up with the most attractive person who responds. Perform oral sex on them.
3) While doing so, choose to be aroused by the experience.
4) Come back here, and tell us how incredibly easy it was to choose to be gay.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Fosdick, posted 01-08-2007 12:05 PM Fosdick has not replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 66 of 306 (375351)
01-08-2007 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ReverendDG
01-07-2007 10:31 PM


Re: Gay "marriage" & gay genes
Hoot Mon wrote:
Porn? How so?
the bias that two gay men having sex or kissing is gross but two gay women are not
So it is YOU, not ME, who regards gay sex as pornographic.
sorry but i find your bigotry sickining. for someone who's "trying" to have an openmind you already show you already closed the door on this issue”the fact is if it is found it nature it is part of nature and not an abberration”yes because they are gay or a dwarf or anything they are fringe and should be ignored till they are a problem for you.
my faith in humanity just went down a notch
Gosh, I didn’t know I had such enormous powers!
yes because being gay is a bad thing and somehow effects your life and well being .
Whoever said that?
when people are hated for the people they love, the human race has lost all hope of ever being happy ever again
and when it matters who loves you, instead of that fact that you have people who love you, i have lost all hope for humanity
it makes me sick inside that what sex you are, what color, religion, or ethicity matters in anything when it comes to compassion and love for other people
it just makes me want to cry and ask god why he doesn't do anything
Maybe because He’s gay? Has anyone ever bothered to ask?
”Hoot Mon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ReverendDG, posted 01-07-2007 10:31 PM ReverendDG has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Taz, posted 01-08-2007 12:49 PM Fosdick has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 67 of 306 (375354)
01-08-2007 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Fosdick
01-08-2007 11:30 AM


Re: Gay "marriage" & gay genes
Hoot Mon writes:
No problem there. I'm not out to take any RIGHTS away from anyone.
Are you misreading my messages on purpose or are you incapable correctly reading them?
I haven't suggested that you want to take people's rights away. I have suggested, however, that you want to exclude people from certain rights, which I will explain next.
Once again, why would gays have to be "married" if a civil union ceremony with equivalent rights was available to them. It comes down to a just a single word, which is NOT a right. (Remember, I want gays to have ALL the rights they deserve.)
Then explain to me why the two dozen or so states that have laws banning gay marriage also banned any form of union whatsoever that remotely resemble marriage? People like you keep saying that you are fine with gay people having some kind of civil union but then you always seem to legislate and vote for laws that would ban ANY possiility for gay people to enjoy even a few rights that married couples enjoy.
Personally, if my gay friends support civil union then I would respect their wishes and follow them. But every legislation thus far that want to exclude gays from "marriage" also at the same time exclude gays from ANY form of union that recognizes partnership.
And since you took the liberty to post one of your gay soap operas, I'll post one of my poems along the same lines:
I'd hardly call x-men a soap opera.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Fosdick, posted 01-08-2007 11:30 AM Fosdick has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 68 of 306 (375359)
01-08-2007 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Fosdick
01-08-2007 12:29 PM


Re: Gay "marriage" & gay genes
Hoot Mon writes:
Rev writes:
yes because being gay is a bad thing and somehow effects your life and well being .
Whoever said that?
You did, when you suggested that the problem would go away once we can clinically "cure" gay people on outgoing patience. It is the same tone we use today for AIDS, cancer, and other currently incurable diseases. You have been beating around the bushes, but it is clear to everyone here that deep down you equate homosexuality to something like leprosy and gay people to lepers.
Maybe because He’s gay? Has anyone ever bothered to ask?
Maybe who's gay? Are you talking about me? If so, you should be aware that I have no gay tendency whatsoever. If I ever get the urge, I'll be the first to let you know. In the mean time, perhaps you should consider that not everyone who sees an injustice in the gay rights issue is gay.
Coincidently, I'm a feminist... doesn't mean I'm a woman. I'm white, doesn't mean I'm a white nationalist. I'm an atheist, doesn't mean that I regularly attend kitten and puppy BBQ's.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Fosdick, posted 01-08-2007 12:29 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Fosdick, posted 01-08-2007 1:18 PM Taz has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 306 (375371)
01-08-2007 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Fosdick
01-07-2007 2:31 PM


Re: a benefit or not ...
quote:
Porn? How so?
Just a joke, Hoot.
-
quote:
Maybe gays are natural. That's why I wondered about gay behavior in other animals. Not being gay myself, I see it as an aberration. Maybe I should accept it as fringe characteristric, like musical savants and dwarfism. I'm still muttering over this issue, trying to keep an over mind.
While you're muttering, I'll remind our readers that unlike most other animals, humans don't have "natural" behaviors. In particular, humnans don't have "natural" sexual behaviors.
Humans seem to have natural desire to live among other humans, and maybe there's a natural desire to have sex with another human being, but even these seem to be few and far between. What behaviors become "natural" and "unnatural" are largely a matter of the culture.

I have always preferred, as guides to human action, messy hypothetical imperatives like the Golden Rule, based on negotiation, compromise and general respect, to the Kantian categorical imperatives of absolute righteousness, in whose name we so often murder and maim until we decide that we had followed the wrong instantiation of the right generality. -- Stephen Jay Gould

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Fosdick, posted 01-07-2007 2:31 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Fosdick, posted 01-08-2007 1:31 PM Chiroptera has replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 70 of 306 (375372)
01-08-2007 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Taz
01-08-2007 12:49 PM


Re: Gay "marriage" & gay genes
Tasmanian Devil wrote:
You have been beating around the bushes, but it is clear to everyone here that deep down you equate homosexuality to something like leprosy and gay people to lepers.
Nah. You don't really know what's "deep down" inside me, do you? I'm only asking if gay-ness is "natural," as in "biologically natural." And there IS evidence suggesting that it IS natural. The alternative, of course, is that homosexuality is achieved by choice. That's my direction of inquiry. Why is it wrong for me to ask these questions?
And then you wrote:
it just makes me want to cry and ask god why he doesn't do anything
Then I wrote:
Maybe because He’s gay? Has anyone ever bothered to ask?
Then he wrote:
Maybe who's gay? Are you talking about me? If so, you should be aware that I have no gay tendency whatsoever. If I ever get the urge, I'll be the first to let you know. In the mean time, perhaps you should consider that not everyone who sees an injustice in the gay rights issue is gay.
Opps. Are you really paying attention here?
”Hoot Mon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Taz, posted 01-08-2007 12:49 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-08-2007 1:26 PM Fosdick has replied
 Message 73 by Taz, posted 01-08-2007 1:33 PM Fosdick has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 306 (375376)
01-08-2007 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Fosdick
01-08-2007 1:18 PM


Re: Gay "marriage" & gay genes
The alternative, of course, is that homosexuality is achieved by choice. That's my direction of inquiry. Why is it wrong for me to ask these questions?
It's not. Have you tried the handy-dandy test I laid out in post 65?
Should answer your questions pretty quickly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Fosdick, posted 01-08-2007 1:18 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Fosdick, posted 01-08-2007 1:35 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 72 of 306 (375377)
01-08-2007 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Chiroptera
01-08-2007 1:16 PM


Re: a benefit or not ...
Chiroptera, re:
While you're muttering, I'll remind our readers that unlike most other animals, humans don't have "natural" behaviors. In particular, humnans don't have "natural" sexual behaviors.
Humans seem to have natural desire to live among other humans, and maybe there's a natural desire to have sex with another human being, but even these seem to be few and far between. What behaviors become "natural" and "unnatural" are largely a matter of the culture.
Ah! I see the rub. You and I differ on a key point”I think humans are ENTIRELY natural, and you think we are UNNATURAL, at least in part.
What is the alternative if humans are not regarded as "natural"? I don't see much that sets us apart from other animals. In truth, I'm not even sure if we are the most advanced species. (Termites and orcas are impressive, too.)
”Hoot Mon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Chiroptera, posted 01-08-2007 1:16 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Chiroptera, posted 01-08-2007 4:18 PM Fosdick has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 73 of 306 (375380)
01-08-2007 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Fosdick
01-08-2007 1:18 PM


Re: Gay "marriage" & gay genes
Hoot Mon writes:
Opps. Are you really paying attention here?
Yes, and I can assure you that I am the almighty... Ok, I get it now

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Fosdick, posted 01-08-2007 1:18 PM Fosdick has not replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 74 of 306 (375382)
01-08-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Dan Carroll
01-08-2007 1:26 PM


Re: Gay "marriage" & gay genes
Dan Carroll, re:
Have you tried the handy-dandy test I laid out in post 65?
Sorry. Not going there.
”Hoot Mon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-08-2007 1:26 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-08-2007 1:35 PM Fosdick has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 306 (375383)
01-08-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Fosdick
01-08-2007 1:35 PM


Re: Gay "marriage" & gay genes
Sorry. Not going there.
Why not?
If one can choose to be gay, you'll love it, no matter what your feelings on the subject are right now.
Edited by Dan Carroll, : for further clarification

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Fosdick, posted 01-08-2007 1:35 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Fosdick, posted 01-08-2007 1:42 PM Dan Carroll has replied

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