Christianity, Knowledge and Science

Well that is certainly a great question.Since there are both Christians and Muslims on both sides of the issue, Christians and Muslims that support knowledge and science as well as Christians and Muslims that oppose knowledge and science, it is not simply Religion that is the key factor but rather some other factor.So what is different between those religious folk that do not oppose science and those that do?Are there other examples of a culture turning to Ignorance?What about China when they turned their back on exploration and science and called back all their fleets and drew themselves inward?What about the Cultural Revolution under Mao?How about the movement back to an agrarian society under Pol Pot and under Stalin where intellectuals were taken out of the schools and sent to the fields or Siberia?We always like to have simple answers.

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Too bad the real world is often complex.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Cocytus asks:My simple answer to your question is yes!The long answer is a little more evocative... let's think about it!Our religion is really just our philosophy. It is our 'worldview' that we use to tell us what is legitimate and what is not. It also tells us what is progress and what is not. And our philosophies' foundation is where the critical assumptions hide. If we want to know if our 'religion' is reasonable, we have to find out if the assumptions that anchor that 'worldview' are logical.Cocytus said:NO it doesn't. It stigmatizes knowledge of evil as terrible. And that is precisely why Judeo-Christian assumptions are correct.There is so much we do not know...For example, I don't think anyone had the kind of knowledge that Josef Mengala tried to shed light on, as he castrated and experimented on young boys in Germany.Just think of all the things we don't know. There is so much hell yet to be unleashed.So back to my simple answer... yes! Religion does make good people do bad things. And it started in the garden of Eden when man tried to play God. But the worldview of a Hitler or Mengala is certainly about the worse we've yet seen. But a different philosophy can lead us even more astray. Like one that says all knowledge is good and progresive.So we run into a fix... Some knowledge is evil.Let's look at the first religion that challenged the absolute:We've still infinite room to use science (knowledge) to unleash all manner of Pandora's boxes. Science is amoral (as opposed to immoral) so as King Crimson (I think) sang in the sixties, 'knowledge is a deadly friend when no-one sets the rules, the fate of all mankind I see is in the hands of fools.'Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

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Mark 8:33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

I don't think that's right either.

quote:

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Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.'

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Knowledge is not stigmatized. It makes us more like God.You can't separate out the knowledge of evil as "terrible". The knowledge of good and evil is what makes us more like God.But that knowledge doesn't consist of simple answers to hard questions. Knowledge is a heavy responsibility.

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You're predictable as sunrise. I'm glad you brought up that most excellent and glorious point! Who get's to choose how much like God we are supposed to be? What is humanity's perfection?I mean, God created rocks to reflect His glory as well. Does a rock question why God made it a rock? And will it instead insist on being a boulder? How can a mountain exist without the rocks?Everything has a proper place. Do we know our place? Or has our programming been altered because we will... what we know not?Isaiah 29:16 You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?Isaiah 45:9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'He has no hands'?How well can you handle what knowledge you have Ringo?

Choice has nothing to do with it. "How much" we are like God has nothiing to do with it.The topic is about knowledge and I was pointing out that knowledge is not stigmatized in the first part of Genesis. Far from it. Knowledge makes us "more like God".That's a good thing. That's all. No need to measure it. Rocks didn't eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. They are irrelevant to the topic. As I said, the answers are not simple.

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What ever Ringo... God has many qualities. If you think gaining one of those qualites (knowledge) without gaining the complimentary discipline (morality) that balances that power is good, then you're just so hell bent on gaining or holding onto whatever it is you worship, that you have become blind.

What?The knowledge I'm talking about is the knowledge of good and evil. That is morality.There is no question of "balance" or "power". It's about knowledge - and knowing what is good or evil in a specific situation is the hard part.

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Okay, I'll accept that!Do you have all knowledge, such as knowledge of the consequences of actions new to you?

Irrelevant.I have the responsibility to act on the knowledge that I do have.

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Please answer the question. Do you have all knowledge? It's a simple yes or no. So be responsible...We all know the answer... So do tell!Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

We have all the knowledge we have when we make decisions, and that is all we will ever have.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

So, based on the knowledge you have, please make a decision to tell us if you have all knowledge please.

Somewhere in the thread, Cocytus hinted at seperating factual knowledge from wisdom, i.e., the ability to make good decisions based on factual knowledge. Morality might serve the purpose just as well.When it comes to the GoE, what exactly was stigmatized? Was the 'knowledge' of good and evil factual knowledge? Was it wisdom? Or simply a misnomer for the ability or awareness to recognize a good action or a bad one? Was knowledge evil? Evil did not yet exist. But yet Adam and Eve were ALREADY choosing between good and evil. Did they simply not know this? Then why were they punished for disobedience? Maybe,the knowledge WASN'T evil, but it had consequences, like getting kicked out of the GoE, just because they didn't know how to handle it yet. Knowledge is power, without wisdom or morality it can be dangerous. Knowledge is not evil in itself, but if we have all knowledge and no wisdom, it can be dangerous to leave us alone with the tree of life?

I have all the knowledge I have, as I said. You having trouble reading?Try rereading Message 56

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Is the knowledge you have equal to all the knowledge that there is? Are you omniscient?That is as simple a question as there can be!