Is Racism Alive and Well in Church?

This strikes me as being a fairly poorly thought-out statement. What makes you think this would be the case? When you think about it, do you really think that Renaissance Europe and pre-colonial America really represented identical environments for the evolution of diseases?

Well, actually it did. There were diseases that went from the New World to the Old, but the risk and exposure mechanism was entirely different.Were there was a constant stream of new immigrants traveling from the Old World to the New, that compensated for the death rates among the European settlers, that was not true of the populations already in the New World. The Native Americans were nomadic and acted as a great vector spreading disease all across the two continents, while the new immigrants tended to stay in small conclaves as they established towns. Deaths were replenished by new arrivals.But what does any of that have to do with racism and Church?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

We certainly have our share of racism in our society - almost all of it subtle. I'm just saying that, in my experience, there is less of it in church than outside. That might well be because of an artificial "church politeness". I still have no idea what you're trying to say.

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Just a picture of some members of certain christian communities holding signs with questionable words written on them, thats all. After I posted that picture, I had a second thought that perhaps I have been too negative these days and thus should try more often to keep my mouth shut when there's nothing nice to say.

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AKA G.A.S.B.Y.George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

Let me take this war in Iraq as something of an example. Here we (U.S.) are, a predominantly christian nation, exterminating people from a predominantly Islamic nation. Most Americans are white. Most Iraqi people are non-white. Yet, both sides worship the same god. What more would you need to know about that god, and everything it stands for?I know there are common methods of rationalizing it. But, seriously, for the sake of discussion, what must that say about some god that's supposed to be right here, right beside everyone?

Well, if you must invoke that horrid theory...hypothetically, I would say no. But, I know your not saying that the natives didn't have their own strains to deal with.To stay on track, though, I'm pretty sure you're also not saying that the cavalry didn't send the natives blankets laced with smallpox, as tokens of appreciation. I'd rather not go there if we didn't have to.But, if you insist, can you hit me back with #13,000?I WANT THAT POST!

?Seriously, what the @#$% are you talking about?
And what the @#$% has it got to do with racism and church?It doesn't help that you add in a whole bunch more junk every time you try to "clarify".Simplify!What are you trying to say?

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Ringo writes: ??? (I thought you were kidding with this one.)Ringo, church IS racism.How else do you want me to say it? On my last post, I guess I could have added:You know, it'd be nice if we (Americans) had a president that prefaced this war as being strictly not a cultural war. It would be nice if a president could say something to us like, "My fellow Americans, Racism is a terrible injustice. It is simply wrong. It is fueled by ignorance, deliberate propaganda, and misinformation. People, it is time for us to come together (at least as a nation) and flood this place with compassion and understanding. A new war has begun.W.A.R. ==> Whites Against RacismHopefully, this war will never end! Good people, separate yourselves from the cowards, so that you don't look like one. It is time for the madness to end."But, do we have that, Ringo? No, we have a president who uses christianity to add fuel to the fire. The American media makes Muslims out to be evil, when all they do is worship the same twisted god. This amounts to state sponsored racism. Do we ever see christians speak out against it? If you care, do it right now. When christians choose not to speak out against racism, it only supports my position.Sure, Ringo, it's nice to see a couple photos of some kids at Sunday School. It would be a whole lot nicer to see people walk away from the church, and come together as PEOPLE, not worshippers of a god that allows its name to be used in support of hatred and murder, by the leader of the most powerful nation on earth.RELIGION IS WRONG, AND GOD IS EVIL!Do you need me to elaborate more, Ringo?

how is church racist, i'm not sure how you explained it, people have pointed out that it depends on the demographic you live in. if you live where there are lots of whites, you will see a large white congregation, or a large black one if you live in a black nieghborhoodi'm not sure how you really can connect the two things i agree, buit you arn't connecting the two issues at all, what does religion have to do with rascism? you might have a case if it was common for people still to consider blacks to be cursed, but they don't really do that anymore, at least not out in public but muslams arn't a race, they sometimes make middle-eastern people out to be evil, and many people are anti-islam, but its not racism, since its not singling out a race this is worthy of FSTDT.com you know that right? i mean you starting to scare me with your zealotry aganst religion, thats hard to do in what way is it wrong? i don't think its all wrong, and god is both good and evil, only the brainwashed think he's just good or evil i sometimes forget that fundies come in all stripes including the rabid secluar anti-religious fundie, the religious ones drown the non ones out though

That's just the point: I don't want you to "say it". You asked a question and I've been trying to find out what you're asking.Let's recap:In Message 2, you said:

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It'd be great to see anyone even hint at the idea that Creationism is a fair practice.

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I wondered what that has to do with racism in the church, so in Message 8, I asked:

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What do you mean?

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In Message 14, you responded:

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I've heard that there are parts of the christian bible that call out for certain views against other religions.

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and you added:

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BTW, does creationism mean christianity?

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I don't see what any of that has to do with what I asked or with racism in the church, so in Message 18, I said:

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I still have no idea what you're trying to say.

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In Message 20, you responded with yet another diversion to the war in Iraq.I'm still left wondering what you meant in Message 2 by:

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It'd be great to see anyone even hint at the idea that Creationism is a fair practice.

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Can't you just explain in plain English what you mean by that and what it has to do with the topic?-------------As for this post: That's a nice warm-and-fuzzy sentiment all right, but what has it got to do with the topic? Nothing you have said comes close to supporting that. You haven't established a link between religion and racism (or any other form of evil) at all. I need you to say something, just anything to support your thesis. All we've seen so far is a rant.

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Couldn't have said it better myself...(This message addresses the OP more than it does Jar).A church is often a microcosm of its general surrounding that is often influenced by social pressures of that particular area. Some churches are good, some are bad.So, to Limbosis, you'd have to have single out either a specific church or a specific denomination for scrutiny because blanket statements about the Church as a conglomerate will only show that you can't pin down any specific belief that is universally recognized about race.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

No. But I am saying that a spread-out, agrarian mode of existence doesn't result in the development of the same virulent diseases that European-style city living does. Europe had the plague, which wiped out more than a third of the population.What did the native Americans have? I'm not familiar with any pandemic native illnesses. Malaria, I guess, but that's largely confined to specific latitudes.From what I can tell it's a matter of historical fact that smallpox and other Eurasian diseases wiped out more than 90% of the native population of the New World, from intentional and unintentional exposure. You seem to dispute this? Unless I'm reading you wrong? No, that certainly happened. I thought you were saying that didn't happen.I guess I'm not clear on your meaning.

My son attends a Methodist church in Jackson, TN that is somewhat racially mixed. I wouldn't say that the proportions mirror the community, but there were certainly more than one or two blacks there the few times I've been.Granted, Jackson isn't quite as rural as Selmer, but it ain't Nashville, either!

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

I happen to believe that racism today is probably slightly less virulent today than it was back 50 or 60 years ago. But I also fear that it is not much different.What has changed though are the laws in the US. It is no longer legal to refuse to serve someone in a restaurant because of their race, or to make someone use a separate bathroom because of their race, or to make them sit in a separate part of a stadium because of their race, or to refuse to let them in the theater or cut their hair or allow them to use the same fountain or swim in the public swimming pool or go to the same school, just because of their race.Just 50 years ago, it was legal to do all of those things and not just legal, in many areas it was the LAW that you Must do those things. I was arrested, fired from my job and blackballed throughout a city simply because I sat with a black person at a restaurant counter.What changed was LAW. Gradually, with experience, some folks attitudes and beliefs changed, but for many, they did not. LAW has forced schools to integrate. LAW has forced restaurants and theaters and stadiums and pools and bathrooms and fountains and barber shops and work places to integrate.Under the US Constitution, we cannot dictate practices to Churches. There cannot be a Law that says churches must accept people of all races. The Church remains a place where freedom of belief is sacred, even if it is a really stupid belief.Because the US Constitution prohibits interference with religions, Churches can and should be able to, remain segregated if they so desire. That is as it should be. Once we get full rights for gays, a church will still be free to consider homosexuality a sin and to refuse to perform same-sex marriages and even free not to recognize same-sex marriage. It will be the same situation as seen today with the Roman Catholic Church that does not recognize divorces or consider the remarriage of a divorced couple as valid.Churches have the RIGHT to discriminate. And Churches should have that right.The result is that Churches today more closely reflect the true beliefs of the congregation. If the members really are inclusive, then the makeup of the church will reflect that. If the members are exclusive, then that will show in the makeup of the congregation.The source of any racism is not the CHURCH, not religion. Instead, the Church is but a mirror, reflecting the personal prejudices of the individual members.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Just a couple of points...religion, particularly the type of belief system you possess, has been shown to be related to prejudice of various kinds (race and sexuality). I don't know if you can relate this to a building though (i.e. church). This is commonly via traits of right-wing authoritarianism which is indicative of certain types of religious belief.In the UK, laws that relate to racist attacks also include attacks that include national identity and religious affiliation. Thus an attack by a welsh person on an english person motivated due to prejudice is classed and treated as a racial attack. From a more psychological viewpoint, whether the prejudice is motivated by race, religion, or national identity, it's all the same process of 'us vrs them'.ABE: Edited by melatonin, : added study abstract