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Author Topic:   Christianity, Knowledge and Science
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 61 of 221 (376083)
01-10-2007 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by anastasia
01-10-2007 11:02 PM


anastasia writes:
When it comes to the GoE, what exactly was stigmatized?
Are we convinced that anything was "stigmatized" (even in the broader sense of that word)?
Was the 'knowledge' of good and evil factual knowledge? Was it wisdom? Or simply a misnomer for the ability or awareness to recognize a good action or a bad one?
I think "knowledge" is a misnomer in a way. The story seems to be more about explaining why we have the responsibility to use our factual knowledge and our wisdom, instead of blindly "following orders". The "knowledge" is more like an ability to learn.
Maybe,the knowledge WASN'T evil, but it had consequences, like getting kicked out of the GoE, just because they didn't know how to handle it yet.
A lot of times, the knowledge of good and evil entails choosing between less-than-perfect options. Take the stem cell issue: Which is worse? Killing a potential life? Or doing less than we can to preserve an existing life?
The knowledge of good and evil is not always cut and dried.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by anastasia, posted 01-10-2007 11:02 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 221 (376085)
01-10-2007 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Rob
01-10-2007 11:20 PM


End of silly game playing
You keep asking totally irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with the topic.
Is the knowledge you have equal to all the knowledge that there is? Are you omniscient?
That is as simple a question as there can be!
What does that have to do with "Christianity, Knowledge and Science?"
Sorry but I am trying to stick to the topic. Play your silly games with someone else.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Rob, posted 01-10-2007 11:20 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Rob, posted 01-10-2007 11:26 PM jar has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 63 of 221 (376088)
01-10-2007 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
01-10-2007 11:24 PM


Re: End of silly game playing
Play your silly games with someone else.
The only game... is you... not answering... a question... that everyone knows the answer to already.

Mark 8:33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 01-10-2007 11:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 01-10-2007 11:33 PM Rob has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 64 of 221 (376089)
01-10-2007 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by anastasia
01-10-2007 11:02 PM


Getting kicked out of the GOE had nothing to do with knowledge.
Maybe,the knowledge WASN'T evil, but it had consequences, like getting kicked out of the GoE, just because they didn't know how to handle it yet.
The reason they were kicked out of the GOE was because GOD feared that they might eat from the Tree of Life.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 221 (376091)
01-10-2007 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Rob
01-10-2007 11:26 PM


Re: End of silly game playing
Your question is silly, sophomoric and inane. Of course I do not have all knowledge.
I do have the knowledge I have at any given moment to make decisions. That is all that I have.
That is why we as Christians must support science. We cannot simply abdicate our responsibility to some imagined entity that supposedly knows all.
We are responsible for what we do. Any nonsense about "omniscience" is just blather, pointless drivel and totally unrelated to the topic.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Rob, posted 01-10-2007 11:26 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Cocytus, posted 01-11-2007 1:16 AM jar has replied
 Message 67 by Rob, posted 01-11-2007 1:38 AM jar has replied
 Message 111 by DorfMan, posted 01-12-2007 9:05 AM jar has replied

  
Cocytus
Junior Member (Idle past 6287 days)
Posts: 19
From: Kansas
Joined: 01-07-2007


Message 66 of 221 (376109)
01-11-2007 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
01-10-2007 11:33 PM


Re: End of silly game playing
Wow. Just... wow. This thread has exploded, but perhaps in a positive way.
It seems to me that "the knowledge of good and evil," just HAVING that knowledge, is itself evil. I say this because the knowledge of good and evil was A) put forth by satan himself and B) most asuredly banned (stigmatized) by God. It HAD to be, otherwise there would be no consequences to gaining said knowledge (viz. evil in the world).
So, morality ITSELF is evil, or at least stigmatized, because it is knowledge (or a product of knowledge) that we as humans SHOULD NOT HAVE. Indeed it makes perfect sense to me now that the reason the Church (of whatever denomination) claims a monopoly on morality is because of this very sort of reasoning: Only the church can make pronouncements on the morality (good/evil) of a given situation because only the church is close enough to God and/or pure enough to make such a pronouncement.
In fact, it is nigh blasphemous to think that humans can even understand good and evil. The only thing that Genesis SAYS about the knowledge of good and evil seems to imply that humans only gained the knowledge that good and evil EXIST. Genesis does not even imply that humans know what good and evil ARE, only that they EXIST.
Boy, I'm sure glad I made this thread. I sure have learned a lot about Christianity in these few pages. Everyone here has given me a great deal of ammunition for which to attack religion in general! Thanks!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 01-10-2007 11:33 PM jar has replied

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 67 of 221 (376113)
01-11-2007 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
01-10-2007 11:33 PM


Re: End of silly game playing
jar said:
Of course I do not have all knowledge.
The reason this started is because Ringo made a comment in relation to knowledge:
There is no question of "balance" or "power". It's about knowledge - and knowing what is good or evil in a specific situation is the hard part.
And cooperatively,,, I said to Ringo:
Okay, I'll accept that!
So do you have all knowledge, such as knowledge of the consequences of actions new to you?
Then, after he chased his tail a bit, you stepped in.
jar said:
Your question is silly, sophomoric and inane. Of course I do not have all knowledge.
The question is not inane. The most important questions are the simplest ones. And they are the one's least asked of ourselves in our selfrighteous priggery. Allow me to demonstrate... Allow me to serve...
And thank you for cooperating! Now I can move on with my premise...
jar said:
I do have the knowledge I have at any given moment to make decisions. That is all that I have.
And I think the most pertinent knowledge in that catagory is the fact that you do not have all knowledge.
And none of us do by the way. If anyone is an exception, you may wish to skip the rest of this...
And that is why, what I asked Ringo is so critical...:
So do you have all knowledge, such as knowledge of the consequences of actions new to you?
Not the best framed question mind you, but everyone get's the point, 'do we know the consequences of actions?'
I am moving very slowly for a reason. Not to offend, but so there is no wiggle room for our malignant duplicity (all our names are Jacob).
If we do not have knowledge of the consequences of our actions, and we know that we do not... then how can we possibly know whether or not we are going the right way?
You actually pegged it jar! You nailed it right on the head when you reminded Anastasia that we were kicked out of the GoE so that we would not be allowed to eat from the tree of life.
Only He knows everything, and only He knows the way. If He allowed us to live at our own whim forever then nothing would stop a Hitler or a Ghengis Khan. And given eternity in this place, don't think that you and I would have been any better. We cannot even imagine what chaos is. As miserable as it is in this place, we have it good!
Again, jar said:
I do have the knowledge I have at any given moment to make decisions. That is all that I have.
That is incorrect. You have another choice that avails itself beyond the mere cause and effect of your current knowledge. Your choices are not as black and white as you pretend to believe.
You cannot deny that as a fintite creature you're lost in an eternal existence without the supplies to build your Tower. But you try as we all did, but then comes the Word.
As C.S. Lewis said, '...cool intellect must not only prevail against cool intellect on the other side, but against the muddy heathen mysticisms that deny intellect altogether.'
There is a 'triune' option. And that option is to surrender our whole life to God. To admit that we have been hiding from Him, and finally give up our wealth of passions and beliefs; to give up our religions, and our ignorance; to acknowledge our bankruptcy and dishonesty; our utter inability to hide or pretend that God doesn't know exactly what we are. And to see ourselves for the first time, in desparate need of forgiveness, and with no option but to trust Him.
No beliefs; no interpretaions... Just total surrender. If for no other reason that it is the only logical option with nothing left to lose..
2 Kings 7:3 Now there were four men with leprosy at the entrance of the city gate. They said to each other, "Why stay here until we die? 4 If we say, 'We'll go into the city'--the famine is there, and we will die. And if we stay here, we will die. So let's go over to the camp of the Arameans and surrender. If they spare us, we live; if they kill us, then we die."
That is Christianity. And that is knowledge.
God will lead us into all knowledge, but only He forsees the pitfalls. He leads us in ways we could have never guessed. Saves us from traps we never perceived. If we do not trust Him, we will die.
Isaiah 40:14 Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?
Isaiah 43:19 See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the desert and streams in the wasteland.
Isaiah 48:17 This is what the Lord says-- your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the Lord your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 68 of 221 (376144)
01-11-2007 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Rob
01-10-2007 8:47 PM


scotness
NO it doesn't. It stigmatizes knowledge of evil as terrible
I have a question then. Does it also stigmatize good as being terrible since the fruit was of the knowledge of both good and evil?
Edited by sidelined, : the first reply did not post entirely

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Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3374 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 69 of 221 (376151)
01-11-2007 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Rob
01-11-2007 1:38 AM


You should be aware that this list of texts has no authority to anyone who does not adhere to an appropriate religion. It may be fine for Christians etc, but it is meaningless to everyone else.
It does indicate to me that some Christians would like to shut down modern science, just as happened to Muslim science when their mysticism likewise got out of hand. That desire should be resisted by all who do not want to see another Dark Age in (so far) modern societies.
Edited by Woodsy, : No reason given.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 70 of 221 (376160)
01-11-2007 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Rob
01-11-2007 1:38 AM


Re: End of silly game playing
I'm sorry Rob but everything after "And I think the most pertinent knowledge in that catagory is the fact that you do not have all knowledge." was just jabberwocky.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Rob, posted 01-11-2007 1:38 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 221 (376162)
01-11-2007 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Cocytus
01-11-2007 1:16 AM


Re: End of silly game playing
It seems to me that "the knowledge of good and evil," just HAVING that knowledge, is itself evil.
Why?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by NosyNed, posted 01-11-2007 10:28 AM jar has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 72 of 221 (376173)
01-11-2007 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
01-11-2007 10:00 AM


knowledge and scotness' point
I think that scottness has a good point in there.
What he is saying isn't in the Bible (big surprise ) but I think he has a point.
Knowledge is power. Giving ourselves too much power that we don't have the understanding and wisdom to use well is dangerous.
We seem to gather knowledge to enable us to have more control over the world but we don't gather all the knowledge necessary to use that control well.
I would say that history has demonstrated that what we have learned is a two edged sword. We alleviate suffering with our abilities to cure illnss. In fact, from the perspecitive of the Biblical writers we ARE gods! We can perform the miracles of the Bible and then some. But we haven't controlled our use of that power and now there are some billions too many of us. We are in real danger of crushing the world under our weight.
Too much knowledge not enough wisdom might be the point in what scottness has to say.

This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 73 of 221 (376176)
01-11-2007 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
01-10-2007 11:23 PM


Ringo writes:
Are we convinced that anything was "stigmatized"
Read the OP. I think I am asking the same question you are.
The knowledge of good and evil is not always cut and dried.
That's the connection I was making...our scientific ability is sometimes greater than our 'knowledge' of what is good and evil in the application of it. We do see experiments done on people whom we at one time felt were inferior, or experiments done where we just didn't know the psychological effects it would have, etc. The stem cell issue may be one area where are ability to do something is at a more advanced stage than our ability to reach a moral concensus on it...that's why I said we were not ready to be left in a garden with the Tree of Life.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 74 of 221 (376181)
01-11-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by NosyNed
01-11-2007 10:28 AM


Re: knowledge and scotness' point
Actually, I am replying to Percy in another thread basically on just that point.
There is a somewhat parallel thread going on right now on "Creationism IS a 'Cult'ural Movement!"
My position is that Biblical Creationism is just one indicator of a broader movement that believes that knowledge must either be limited or filtered.
I agree completely with the fact that we do not think and debate our actions and use our capabilities wisely. The search for wisdom to know how to make the right choice is perhaps the greatest task mankind faces. For that though, the Bible is no better a guide than the Tao Te Ching, I Ching, writings of Mencius, Confucius, the Buddha, the Qur'an, the Vedas, Canticle for Leibowitz, Huck Finn, Slaughterhouse Nine and a whole host of other sources.
All to often it seems we debate the wisdom of decisions after the fact instead of before. I believe that is a shame and an abrogation of our responsibility.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 75 of 221 (376184)
01-11-2007 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by jar
01-11-2007 10:50 AM


Re: knowledge and scotness' point
Slaughterhouse Nine
five!
(or the children's crusade: a duty-dance with death)


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