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Author Topic:   Christianity, Knowledge and Science
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 221 (376313)
01-11-2007 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Straggler
01-11-2007 6:23 PM


Re: On Stem Cell Research
It is impossible to prove or disprove GWs position on stem cell research exactly because it is untestable and religious. Even his political decisions will ultimately be put to the test in some sense (e.g. the US economy will benefit from his policies or it will not) but his attitude to stem cell research is rationally unfounded and untestable.
The interesting thing about Stem Cell research is that they've been in the testing phase for over ten years. People think this is a new development, but it really isn't. It has just been under the genral public's radar until recently.
Adult stem cells have been used to ameliorate disease for upwards of fifteen years now with marked success. The only problem is they are generalized to specific cells, whereas fetal stem cells have multipotent abilities. The theoretical aspects is what first piqued researchers interests. But so far, embyonic stem cells are too radical and tend to form malignant tumors instead of healing anything.
There has obviously been a considerable amount of backlash over the ethical concerns of such an endeavor. Pro-life movements see it as the destruction of human being, whereas the Pro-choice movement see it as nothing more than a blastocyst. In an attempt to make everyone happy, some researchers have proposed a cloned fetus implanted in the uterus in order so that no created fetus was made. This opens even more concerns though with the topic of cloning. So as it stands, we are currently a stand still with Bush's veto.
What does everyone else think about this? Should moral overtones supersede medical practice or vice versa?

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Straggler, posted 01-11-2007 6:23 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 92 of 221 (376329)
01-11-2007 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by iceage
01-11-2007 3:12 PM


Re: End of silly game playing
Knowledge is finding the cure of leprosy!
And then you still die...
The only total cure to our ills is the resurection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by iceage, posted 01-11-2007 3:12 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by iceage, posted 01-11-2007 11:51 PM Rob has replied
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 93 of 221 (376331)
01-11-2007 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by jar
01-11-2007 10:00 AM


Re: End of silly game playing
I'm sorry Rob but everything after "And I think the most pertinent knowledge in that catagory is the fact that you do not have all knowledge." was just jabberwocky.
Well first of all, your not sorry about anything.
Secondly, everything I said is not jabberwocky, unless you believe in absolutes...
You think it is jabberwocky. And that is a different thing.
You already admitted you do not know everything. I know it was hard...

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 Message 70 by jar, posted 01-11-2007 10:00 AM jar has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 94 of 221 (376345)
01-11-2007 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by NosyNed
01-11-2007 10:28 AM


Re: knowledge and scotness' point
I think that scottness has a good point in there.
What he is saying isn't in the Bible (big surprise ) but I think he has a point.
Knowledge is power. Giving ourselves too much power that we don't have the understanding and wisdom to use well is dangerous.
Thanks Nosy, I appriciate the meeting in the middle, and your not throwing the baby out with the rest of the cliche...
But it is in the Bible... that is what the whole Bible is about! It is about power. Knowledge and power.
And the cross challenges everything we believe about power.
It challenges our right to power.
It challenges our right to use that power.
Jesus showed us how to use it properly... not for our indulgence, but for the sake of others.
Look at it this way... if you had the power that Jesus had (assuming He had all power at his diposal)... what would Nosy do with it?
I asked myself those questions long ago... and the answers stunned me.

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 95 of 221 (376348)
01-11-2007 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by NosyNed
01-11-2007 10:28 AM


Re: knowledge and scotness' point
We alleviate suffering with our abilities to cure illnss. In fact, from the perspecitive of the Biblical writers we ARE gods! We can perform the miracles of the Bible and then some. But we haven't controlled our use of that power and now there are some billions too many of us. We are in real danger of crushing the world under our weight.
Exactly... And that is strange no? I mean, we all know that curing illness is good. But what if the people you cure are not moral as well and controlling their own desire to procreate?
So, that was my point to jar... we may know what is good, but we are not omniscient and cannot see that in the end we exterminated ourselves for the sake of wanting to be kind.
Our house of cards has many legs that are crumbling. Some of them we do not even see yet.
Without the help of an all seeing guide, we are blind men leading the blind.
Is acknowedging that fact valuable knowledge itself? jar seems to think it is inane...
It's quite a conundrum we're in.
Check this out in recognition of the pickle:
Matthew 7:3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. 6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
(I have problems obeying that last line.... still more to learn)
Why would Jesus tell us to do that which we cannot do for ourselves? If we cannot take the plank out of our own eye unless we are omniscient then what shall we do?
Sit here and die like leppers?
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

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 Message 72 by NosyNed, posted 01-11-2007 10:28 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 96 of 221 (376365)
01-11-2007 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by iceage
01-11-2007 3:12 PM


Knowledge anew to you and a few...
Sure, but how do you know you are surrendering to the true God and not some demigod or maybe even Satan.
Be cause when I gave my life to Him, I spoke His name... Jesus. Not to mention that this Spirit that now posesses me and gives me knowledge as He sees fit, also will not permit me to do wrong without acknowledging such. Honesty does not come from satan.
Faith and mystical beliefs cannot be trusted and that is amply demonstrated by history and 10000+ disparate religious system that exist within the realm of human thought.
Your own philosophy is a religion, you just don't realize that yet because you lack such knowledge that I try to give, and it appears that you absolutely refuse any such knowledge that might reveal that to you.
Your statement about mystical beliefs is the old Humean position (and even that is new knowledge to you. You thought it novel didn't you? Or that everybody knows that what you said is true?).
It's become one of the assumptions of our post-modern culture. it's never even questioned. It is a metaphysical statement that proposes that metaphysical statements are not trustworthy. Go figure... you killed your own absolute. It is a violent contradiction.
You exemplify G.K. Chestertons's Suicide of thought:
"But the new rebel is a Skeptic, and will not entirely trust anything. He has no loyalty; therefore he can never be a real revolutionist. And the fact that he doubts everything, really gets in his way when he wants to denounce anything. For all denunciation implies a moral doctrine of some kind, and the modern revolutionist doubts not only the institution he denounces, but also the doctrine by which he denounces it.
Thus he writes one book complaining that imperial oppression insults the purity of women, and then he writes another book (about the sex problem) in which he insults it himself. He curses the Sultan because Christian girls lose their virginity and then curses Mrs. Grundy when they keep it. As a politician, he will cry out that war is a waste of life, and then, as a philosopher, that all life is a waste of time. A man denounces marriage as a lie, and then denounces aristocratic profligates for treating it as a lie. He calls a flag a bauble, and then blames the oppressors of Poland and Ireland because they take away that bauble.
The man of this school goes first to a political meeting, where he complains that savages are treated as if they were beasts; then he takes his hat and umbrella and goes on to a scientific meeting, where he proves that they practically are beasts. In short, the modern revolutionist, being an infinite skeptic, is always engaged in undermining his own mines. In his book on politics he attacks men for trampling on morality; in his book on ethics he attacks morality for trampling on men. Therefore the modern man in revolt has become practically useless for all purposes of revolt. By rebelling against everything he has lost his right to rebel against anything."
(Orthodoxy, Chapter title - The Suicide of Thought / 1908)
As the professor in The Lion The Witch And The Wardrobe asked,
'What do they teach these kids at school today?'
And... will they let you reason with them about anything different? Or are they absolutely resoved to have it their way?

This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 97 of 221 (376377)
01-11-2007 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Straggler
01-11-2007 1:10 PM


Re: On Stem Cell Research
Straggler writes:
If those in power decide, for absolutely rationally unjustifiable and untestable reasons that stem cell research is bad
You are begging the question a bit...I have to ask; if those in power decide that stem cell research is good isn't it still untestable?
Working with only the physical reality and the knowledge we have thus far, it IS good. Whether or not it is morally right in terms of a soul, is something we can only determine upon discovering the existance of such. In that sense both sides are operating equally under assumptions. One assuming there is, one assuming there isn't. There is some type of 'faith', from both pro and con positions, that the decision they are making is moral. There is a third choice; since we don't know, we won't make any assumptions, but carry on with progress using the knowledge that we DO have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Straggler, posted 01-11-2007 1:10 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 98 of 221 (376379)
01-11-2007 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Rob
01-11-2007 8:11 PM


Re: End of silly game playing
scottness writes:
And then you still die...
Yes, that is the focus of religion to soothe the very natural fear of death. The fear of death is the primary mover behind religion.
At one time leprosy was also greatly feared. Now science has eliminated that fear. The same, maybe true about death someday.
scottness writes:
The only total cure to our ills is the resurrection.
And the Moslem's have a different answer, as do the Hindu's. "the resurrection" is just another conjecture in a long line of conjectures.
Scottness, do you have any proof or evidence that your conjecture is reality?
I believe that religion is a distraction (and an egotistical one at that) that takes our minds away from our destiny. Our destiny is beyond anything we can imagine at present. However, I have faith , that the path to our destiny involves the continued accumulation of knowledge and extension of the capabilities of the self-aware universe (humans and other higher lifeforms are pieces of self-aware universe).
Primitive religion is often opposed to the systematic acquisition of knoweldge and the paradigm shift in our world view that results from new vantage points.
This is why I tend to agree with the OP that religion can be, and has been, evil.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Rob, posted 01-11-2007 8:11 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Rob, posted 01-12-2007 12:19 AM iceage has replied

  
AdminSchraf
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 221 (376380)
01-12-2007 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Rob
01-11-2007 8:11 PM


Re: End of silly game playing
quote:
And then you still die...
The only total cure to our ills is the resurection.
Rob, you are currently in a science thread.
Desist from making any more preaching posts that do not substantively address the scientific or logical issues in the post you are replying to.
Failure to comply will result in your suspension.
If you are having trouble remembering the Forum Guidelines you agreed to abide by when you rejoined EvC, please read the specific rule below:
4. Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 100 of 221 (376384)
01-12-2007 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by iceage
01-11-2007 11:51 PM


Re: End of silly game playing
However, I have faith , that the path to our destiny involves the continued accumulation of knowledge and extension of the capabilities of the self-aware universe (humans and other higher lifeforms are pieces of self-aware universe).
Well, we all have faith in something. I gave up on pantheism a long time ago for reasons we can get into in a different thread. But it does meld nicely with the evolutionary theory. It's going to be a big hit. An absolute craze!
It appears I've about worn my welcome. people are getting pissy. The thread is y'alls...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by iceage, posted 01-11-2007 11:51 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by iceage, posted 01-12-2007 12:38 AM Rob has replied
 Message 103 by anglagard, posted 01-12-2007 1:08 AM Rob has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 101 of 221 (376385)
01-12-2007 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Rob
01-12-2007 12:19 AM


Re: End of silly game playing
iceage writes:
do you have any proof or evidence that your conjecture is reality?
Err... you avoided this question.
Edited by iceage, : Wrong attribution sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Rob, posted 01-12-2007 12:19 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Rob, posted 01-12-2007 12:44 AM iceage has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 102 of 221 (376387)
01-12-2007 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by iceage
01-12-2007 12:38 AM


do you have any proof or evidence that your conjecture is reality?
Err... you avoided this question.
You mean the ressurection... If you mean under the criteria of the scientific method, no.

Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by iceage, posted 01-12-2007 12:38 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by iceage, posted 01-12-2007 1:16 AM Rob has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 103 of 221 (376390)
01-12-2007 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Rob
01-12-2007 12:19 AM


Re: End of silly game playing
scotness writes:
Well, we all have faith in something. I gave up on pantheism a long time ago for reasons we can get into in a different thread.
Feel free to PNT and rock my world. If you so choose, please consider the use of original thought as opposed to endless random Biblical quotations, interpreted with an apparent attitude of absolute personal infallibility, and then discordantly punctuated with the occasional "aw shucks, I'm so humble."
But it does meld nicely with the evolutionary theory. It's going to be a big hit. An absolute craze!
Do you know what pantheism means (no insult intended)?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Edited by anglagard, : remove repeating quote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Rob, posted 01-12-2007 12:19 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Rob, posted 01-12-2007 1:16 AM anglagard has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 104 of 221 (376392)
01-12-2007 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by anglagard
01-12-2007 1:08 AM


Re: End of silly game playing
Feel free to PNT and rock my world.
EvC Forum: I met God
Do you know what pantheism means (no insult intended)?
I know more than that!

Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by anglagard, posted 01-12-2007 1:08 AM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by anglagard, posted 01-12-2007 1:38 AM Rob has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 105 of 221 (376393)
01-12-2007 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Rob
01-12-2007 12:44 AM


scottness writes:
If you mean under the criteria of the scientific method, no.
And the honest Muslim and Hindu would admit to the same.
You have taken a condescending tone to the superiority of your position. But it is a position that cannot be measured. The combination of arrogance and lack of evidentiary support is appalling. You admitted to your weakness of throwing pearls before swine, but your pearls are imaginary.
One more thought, earlier you also quoted a piece Chestertons's Suicide of thought. Today's jihadist and suicide bomber would find nothing to disagree with Chesterton. The world is black and white and with no contradiction. The skeptic maybe unsure but he not launching inquisitions, crusades or holy wars. The vast majority of scientist are skeptics, thru who are world is made more livable with less suffering. Religion consoles and attempts to explain suffering while the skeptics find the cure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Rob, posted 01-12-2007 12:44 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
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