Fulfilled Prophecy

The most literal translators do not disagree with me. As I have shown, your NIV is not literal to the written manuscript. The text which most of the more literal translators have translated is the text that I keep urging you people to address. You still choose to ignore the evidence in the text as to who the events of chapter one pertain. I am not going to continue down this endless trail of rejection of the written text. You can believe what you wnat. That's your choice and priviledge. It's time for the thread to move on from this stone wall.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Modulous, there's a lot of what you, I and others disagree with coming from mainline fundie scholars, including a 6000 year old earth. I disagree with them regarding global warming, dinos, prophecy issues, et al. There's a phrase I like in the scriptures: Romans 3:4; "..... let God be found true, though every man be found a liar."Likely there's others who interpret the chapter in question more literally than the ones you cited. Regardless of what anyone says, the words written in the text say what they say and I'm not going to read Ninevah into 'Judah, Lebanon, Bashan, Carmel, the seas, the mountains, the earth, "the earth is upheaved, at his presence, yea the world and all that dwell therein."(ASV)'

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

TO ALL: If I don't respond further to this Ninevah segue, don't be surprised unless I see something deemed substantial worthy of response. I'm not conceding anything. I rest my case with the evidence I have posted so as not to stonewall the thread. There are other prophecies which need addressing. This thread is not a Ninevah thread as it appears to be stonewalled into. If someone wishes to do a Ninevah thread, perse for further indepth delving into Nahum, feel free to do so but I'm inclined to move on to other prophecies. I would like to address the return of the Jews in light of Biblical prophecy. I may be going out of town tomorrow and need to do other things tonight. It may be a couple of days or so before I can get back to this.Perhaps in the mean time others will wish to address other prophecy as well as Nahum. That's your perrogative. Thanks to all who've participated thus far, both fundamentalists and non-fundies.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Jar, I'll respond with just two very signifant facts.1. The name, Ninevah is not in the Hebrew manuscripts of Nahum 1:1 as your liberal text erroneously implies.2. According to my Hebrew/English Interlinear which supplies the nearest English equivalent to the Hebrew text, verse 8 begins with the significant little word "but as per the Hebrew word of that text. In order to understand at what point Ninevah is being honed in on, one must note that word, "but." Why? Because it implies that the chariots of Ninevah are likely not the same chariots described in verse one.Verse 2, chapter 2 in your own text which you've quoted, the verse preceeding the fast chariot verses states that restoration of the splendor of Jacob is what is being addressed here implying that those non-contemporaneous flashy fast chariots running back and forth on the broadways often crashing are relative to that restoration of Jacob's splendor, something that has not happened until our day in which the splendor of Jacob is indeed coming into focus as prophesied by Jesus and many of the OT prophets in spite of all the armed nations surrounding it having been determined to destroy the tiny nation ever since it's re-emergence in 1948 as a nation.WAKE UP AND SMELL THE BIBLICAL PROPHETIC COFFEE MY FRIENDS! IT'S ACCURATE AND NO OTHER BOOK/SOURCE HAS IT! YOU CAN STAKE YOUR LIFE AND YOUR SOUL UPON IT! BIBLICAL FAITH IS NOT BLIND AS SO MANY OTHERS ARE!

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

I've been so focused on the topic chapters that I haven't digested chapter 3 yet, though I have read it some time ago. I've never argued anywhere that it does not apply to Ninevah. I have included it as likely applicable to Ninevah as I believe it to be without further study. My point relative to the chariots was, as stated, that the segue events of chapter one, inclusive of the first verses of chapter two did not apply to Ninevah perse. They were given to prophesy to Ninevah how God would deal with all enemies of Jacob/Judah/Jews.NOTE that the prophecy of Ninevah beginning in verse 8 of chapter two as well as chapter three is also a future tense prophecy but history attests that those prophecies were fulfilled shortly after the prophecy was given whereas it does not regarding the future restoration of Jacob/Judah and "day of preparation" refering to the preparation of the mesianic kingdom. Ninevah was still intact when the prophecy was given but soon to fall. Jehovah said he will destroy Ninevah's chariots and will destroy, cut off, make you vile, your fortresses shall be shaken and fall (chapter 3:12 et alThe specific Ninevah prophecy beginning in 2:8 did not include the drying up of the rivers, the shaking down of the mountains, the restoration of Judah et al, et al.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Buz: 1. The name, Ninevah is not in the Hebrew manuscripts of Nahum 1:1 as your liberal text erroneously implies.Arach: 1:1? yes it is. the rest of the chapter, no.Make that 2:1. It was a typo error, Arach. I was responding to quotes of Jar from chapter 2 in which his liberal NIV translation has added the name Ninevah into the text though it is not in the Hebrew manuscripts from which the verse was translated.2. According to my Hebrew/English Interlinear which supplies the nearest English equivalent to the Hebrew text, verse 8 begins with the significant little word "but as per the Hebrew word of that text. In order to understand at what point Ninevah is being honed in on, one must note that word, "but." Why? Because it implies that the chariots of Ninevah are likely not the same chariots described in verse one. Are you trying to convince the www that you are a more knowledgeable and accurate translator of Hebrew to English than the Hebrew scholar than JP Green, editor and translator of the Hebrew/English Interlinear which has gone through 12 editions? Since the Hebrew language has relatively few words, perhaps either words are acceptable, depending on the context. Apparantly, Green sees the context as rendering "but" the more acceptible translation.At the time of restoration of Jacob's splendor, at the time of Israel's preparation, appearing like torches, made of steel (to be soon burned up) crashing in the broadways, et al?? I don't think so in these verses. 1. From my understanding of the post Babylonian Judah, it was nowhere near a restoration of the splendor Judah once had under David and Solomon, et al.2. The splendor described by the prophets depict a messianic kingdom of even far greater splendor than what was experienced under King Solomon. Israel never came close to restoring Solomon's splendorus kingdom.Edited by Buzsaw, : cancel last statement

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Question for prophecy skeptics: Were the Biblical books of prophecy, known over the centuries as the prophetic scriptures historical or prophetic? Were those prophets historians as most of you prophecy skeptics appear to imply or were they prophets of future events which were to be fulfilled at some period after they were given?
Are the colleges and seminaries, the majority of studied theologians over the decades and centuries all mistaken in labeling these books the prophetic scriptures?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

You appear to indicate that there's no other Hebrew prefix for "but." I looked up the five Hebrew prefixes and see none indicative of the word "but" perse. Since the Hebrew is a language of relatively few words, compared to the English language, translators must often determine by context what English word most accurately depicts what the nearest English equivalent is to the manuscript message being translated. Hence scholar/translator/interlinear editor Green apparantly sees the "but" as the most linguistically accurate rendering of the Hebrew prefix "waw" (ancient) "vav" (modern) for the interlinear.Obviously in English "and" can depict a much different meaning than "but" such as in this case. There is a similar problem in the Greek with "these" and "there" as I have encountered in a prophecy in the book of Revelation in which the Greek has neither but the English requires one or the other to make sense. Translators don't always agree which is correct, but a careful examination of the context makes it clear which really makes sense.Evidently Interlinear author and translator/editor Green agrees with me that the "but" should distinguish the former verses from the ones in which the "but" is used, so don't be too condescending towards ole Buz. After all, the "but" implies separation whereas "and" implies conjunction. Green appears to lend support to my contention that the verses relative to Jacob's restoration is not directly revelant to the city of Ninevah. Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

I see the translation you linked does not state precisely which edition the link uses, though it states that it is somewhere between 1976 and 2000. Mine is 1985. Perhaps, as you suggest, he has changed his mind if this edition is later than mine. If that be the case, his being supportive to my position has changed. At least, if that be the case, he was once evidently supportive to my view. Then too, he may indeed be undecided. Thanks for the link.

PaulK, you miss my point that the "but" separates whereas "and" conjuncts. Thus the usage of "but" by Green is supportive to my position regardless of his reason for usage of it.

That's what I said. The Hebrew language has relatively few words relative to English which I'm sure you're aware. You're trying your best to make a fool out of me. There are around 37000 words in Hebrew and nearly twice that in old English. There are many times that in modern English, well over a half million.That there is no "but" prefix in Hebrew Green evidently saw fit, at least in the earlier editions to satisfy the context with the but prefix for whatever reason. There are many instances where English statements call for a but prefix, so if you don't have a Hebrew but prefix you may have a problem in which some improvision is needed. At least that's the way it appears.Anyhow, this thread is not suppose to be a lesson on Hebrew, nor a lesson on Nahum, so hopefully we can move on. I want to get into the rebirth of the nation of Israel which may require a separate thread. It appears that there is not ample space in this thread to cover that segment of prophecy.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

That's just not true. All of the Biblical books are not prophetic books as per the common meaning of the word "prophecy." History is not generally known as "prophecy."knowledge of the future (usually said to be obtained from a divine source)
a prediction uttered under divine inspiration
http://www.wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwnProphecy, in a broad sense, is the prediction of future events. The etymology of the word is ultimately Greek, from pro- "before" plus the root of phanai "speak", i. e. "speaking before" or "foretelling", but prophecy often implies the involvement of supernatural phenomena, whether it is communication with a deity, the reading of magical signs, or astrology. It is also used as a general term for the revelation of divine will.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy
http://www.wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwnSorry, I can't get the links to work for some reason. It took no more of a miracle to predict latter day events than the Babylonian exile. A miracle whether prophecy or turning walking on water is a miracle requiring some divine power. Without divine power, a prophet could no more predict a lightning strike on a given fence post in the timeframe of one hour than he could predict a given event to come to pass two thousand years in the future. In Exodus 2:1 does not say that Aaron will be God's prophet. God knew how Pharoahs regarded miracle workers as gods so God said Moses would be regarded by Pharoah as a god and Aaron would be regarded by Pharoah as Moses's prophet. Get it? To Pharoah: Moses=god, Aaron=Moses's prophet. Aaron was no more of a prophet of God than Moses was a god, however. Aaron was designated by God to be the spokesman for Moses to tell God the message God gave to Moses. He also became the official priest of Israel for the priestly duties.Kings often sought out persons who had the gift of prophecy of future events for the sole purpose of knowing the future. One classic example of this was King Ahab and the prophet Elijah. Sometimes more than one role was given as with Samuel who was priest and prophet.The New Testament designates separate gift roles for teachers and prophets as well as other gifts specifying that all do not have the gift of prophecy et al.I'm not saying this is a hard and fast rule, but as a rule of thumb so to speak, the prophets and prophetic books had much to do about future events as wikapedia bears out by definition.Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

You continue to miss and obfuscate my point.1. Though there are Hebrew words for "but" there is no in-word prefix for "but." Since there is no Hebrew "but" prefix for the purpose of translation the word "but" must be added for whatever reason the translator had to use it.2. That the usage of the word but divides/separates is indicative that possibly translators who added the word "but" for the English language translation saw a division/separation as I do (abe: in the context.)3. None of the major translators of the English Bible used the "and" prefix in their translations and no less than five of them used either the word "but" or the word "though," though having the same connotation as "but." Four of these were "but" and one "though." Nahum 2 (KJV) - He that dasheth in pieces4. Since five of the translators (Hebrew scholars) saw fit to use the separation words, "but" and "though," there must have been something in the context which motivated them to do so in order to convey the Hebrew message to the English, the Hebrew having no "but" prefix perse.Arach, it's fine for you to disagree with Buz but though your viewpoint may be a viable and debatable one, Buz is not a fool, as per your implications.Abe: NOTE: When you get to the link, choose the different translations on that page for verification. Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.Edited by Buzsaw, : correct link

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

You are correct but neither of these negate or refute my statement since the vulgate is not in English and by and large the laity have never heard of Young's Bible.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

1. Disagreement is fine but can be done in an obfuscating manner which, imo, was the case.2. The author did not add any word to the Hebrew, nor did he translate the "but" from any word in the Hebrew in 2:1. He simply added a word so as to satisfy his then understanding of the context. The same evidently goes with the other translators who used it. My point that the Hebrew uses fewer words is relevant here in that unlike English, some of translating it to English must be determined from context.3. In this case the "but" would distinguish Ninevah from restored Judah whereas "and" would not necessarily. The translator makes the judgement.4. Green's original "but" was supportive to my view as well as five of the major translators.
Whether or not the "but" scholars agree with my position, I repeat...repeat....repeat that it is supportive of my position in that it is not conjunctive to the data context of chapter 2 regarding Jacob's restoration and Ninevah.
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5. Can you document that "many" translators of major translations have been unsupportive to my position? I don't think so. So far nobody has, but to the contrary.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28