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Author Topic:   King David found guilty on all counts.
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 46 of 174 (376133)
01-11-2007 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Taz
01-10-2007 12:49 PM


Riverrat, I personally consider talking in cryptic languages and beating around the bushes to imply one thing but saying another is a form of lying.
Pardon me? I have made my answers as simple as possible for you to understand. If your not comprehending it, doesn't make me a liar.
Let's go back to this again. David committed a crime. God made 20 some thousand people die to punish david. God made David's son rape David's wives to punish David.
Yes, God created the world, and life, so what?
You know, a simple yes or no to these statements should do the trick.
You will get a simple yes or no, when you stop implying things in your statements, and stop asking "trick" questions.
It would also be nice to deal directly with the bible verses, then they can be addressed better.
At no point have I denyed, that according to the way you and I think, that David wasn't guilty.
Your taking a step further, and blaming God, but God created everything, so then God is to blame for everything. But he gave us free will, and then left the decisions up to us. I am sure that if David would have consulted with God first before doing such a horrendous act, he wouldn't have done it. David also felt bad for what he did.
Oh no, I stopped saying that. I'm simply asking for YOUR position now.
I told you already, several times. David was to blame, we all are to blame for our own mistakes.
I also told you that I cannot possibly know if God made a mistake or not, no-one really can. That's like asking me to judge God. Jesus came to save, not to judge, and I am supposed to try and be like Him.
What David did was wrong, plain and simple. Why he did it, and why God chose him is another story, and we cannot really know the answers for that.
And this isn't world literature or whatever english class you've taken. You can stop with the wise man voice now.
I'm a plumber dude, but thanks for the compliment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Taz, posted 01-10-2007 12:49 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Taz, posted 01-11-2007 1:05 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 47 of 174 (376169)
01-11-2007 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by riVeRraT
01-11-2007 5:41 AM


riVeRraT writes:
It is not automatic that because of what David did, that David was a bad choice.
He might have been the best of a bad lot, though that seems unlikely.
But my point was that, since he was bad, he might not have been God's choice at all. That might just be the spin put on it by the "Divine Right of Kings" crowd.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2007 5:41 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 01-12-2007 10:04 AM ringo has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 48 of 174 (376220)
01-11-2007 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by riVeRraT
01-11-2007 5:50 AM


riverrat writes:
Yes, God created the world, and life, so what?
That's not what I asked. I did not ask if god created stuff or not. Let me repeat myself.
David committed a crime. God made 20 some thousand people die to punish David. God made David's son rape David's wives to punish David. Is this a correct assessment of what the bible said?

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2007 5:50 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by riVeRraT, posted 01-12-2007 10:14 AM Taz has replied
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 01-12-2007 11:28 AM Taz has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 49 of 174 (376475)
01-12-2007 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
01-11-2007 10:16 AM


Understood, but my point was more towards saying that everything we percieve as bad, may not be, according to God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 01-11-2007 10:16 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 01-12-2007 11:23 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 50 of 174 (376477)
01-12-2007 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Taz
01-11-2007 1:05 PM


Is this a correct assessment of what the bible said?
I am not a bible expert, so that is why I asked if you could refer to specific bible verses, and then we could go from there.
My reference to god creating the world, and life, is to say that many bad things happen in life, and it was all created by God. The bible says that everyone who is in power was put there by God, and I assume that means people like Hitler as well. So regarding whatever happened with David, it is all God's fault (technically) if God exists. That is something you have to hurdle over in order to truely believe in God. Pretending that God doesn't allow bad things to happen is a mistake, because what we percieve as bad, may not be in God's eyes. Understanding these thoughts, and they are in the bible, makes me think that assuming God's choice of David was a mistake, could very well be incorrect.
I guess it is like catch 22. If your God, and you give people free will, and the ability to choose good and bad, and people choose bad, what do you do about it? What is this whole good and bad thing anyway?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Taz, posted 01-11-2007 1:05 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Taz, posted 01-12-2007 4:42 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 51 of 174 (376489)
01-12-2007 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by riVeRraT
01-12-2007 10:04 AM


riVeRraT writes:
... my point was more towards saying that everything we percieve as bad, may not be, according to God.
Not to start an argument but what God perceives as good and bad isn't really important.
The Bible was written for us. Part of its function is to help us perceive what's good and bad.
It seems quite clear that the Bible intends for us to perceive that murder and adultery are bad. So how does it intend for us to perceive David?
Bottom line: Should we perceive that David was good and therefore that God sometimes condones adultery and murder? Or should we perceive that murder and adultery are bad and that the perception of David's goodness is wrong?

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Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 01-12-2007 10:04 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 01-12-2007 11:26 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 174 (376491)
01-12-2007 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
01-12-2007 11:23 AM


Psalming the Pea
I don't think that David is so much known for being good as he is known for being honest before God. (Judging from the many Psalms he wrote)
Its true, however, that he was not gonna admit anything until Nathan the prophet reminded him that he was in fact guilty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 01-12-2007 11:23 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 01-12-2007 11:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 174 (376492)
01-12-2007 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Taz
01-11-2007 1:05 PM


David committed a crime. 20,000 people died as a result of that crime.
God did not intervene. And the lesson is......?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Taz, posted 01-11-2007 1:05 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Taz, posted 01-12-2007 4:46 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 54 of 174 (376499)
01-12-2007 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
01-12-2007 11:26 AM


Re: Psalming the Pea
Phat writes:
... he is known for being honest before God.
Interesting turn of phrase, that.
Was David honest "before" God (caught him with his hand in the cookie jar)? Or "after"?
It's one thing to feign contrition when it comes to doing the time. It's another to honestly assess yourself before doing the crime.
(Judging from the many Psalms he wrote)
Wasn't he a rock star "before" he went into politics?
Seems like another tale of idealistic youth declining into jaded and cynical "maturity". Perhaps a candidate for "ye must be born again".

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 01-12-2007 11:26 AM Phat has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 55 of 174 (376537)
01-12-2007 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by riVeRraT
01-12-2007 10:14 AM


riverrat writes:
I am not a bible expert, so that is why I asked if you could refer to specific bible verses, and then we could go from there.
I don't know if you and phat are being dense on purpose or not...
2 Samuel 12:11 "This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I (god referring to herself) am going to bring calamity upon you (you being David). Before your very eyes I (god referring to herself) will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you (referring to David's rebelling son), and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "
According to an online dictionary, calamity means
1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster: A hurricane would be a calamity for this low-lying coastal region.
2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy.
So, let me ask you this again. Am I correct to think that god punished David by causing his son to rebel against him, throwing the kingdom into a civil war that caused 20,000 people to die in battle. Furthermore, god punished David by making his son rape his wives.
Is this assessment correct?

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by riVeRraT, posted 01-12-2007 10:14 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 56 of 174 (376539)
01-12-2007 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
01-12-2007 11:28 AM


phat writes:
God did not intervene.
Read my post right before this one. How the hell did god not intervene? The passage I posted is literally god's confession to directly causing the...
Phat, if you're going to continue to play this game with me, you win. I have nothing further to say.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 01-12-2007 11:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 57 of 174 (376542)
01-12-2007 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Taz
12-19-2006 12:44 PM


Hi,
God was suppose to be all knowing and yet he chose a man that couldn't keep his penis in his pants to be king.
I don't see why God couldn't choose a rake such as David, when you consider that no human is supposed to be perfect.
But, seriously, we can compare David quite easily to the nation of 'Ancient Israel', a nation that repeatedly stuck the finger up to God. Why would an all knowing God pick someone with David's nature to be king, well whey would an all knowing God pick a nation as immoral as 'Ancient Israel'?
If we even considered for a moment that the Book of Judges is accuarte, then it would make the Israelites the most moronic nation on Earth. Could people really be so stupid as to turn their back on God time and time and time again? Skinner's pigeons learned quicker than the Ancient Israelites if the Bible is to be believed.
I think you might be taking David's tales a little too seriously. I think whoever invented King David were thinking similarly to the ancient philosophers who invented Ancient Israel. They invented stories and characters as didactic treatises, to demonstrate to their people that although King David was unworthy, just as the Ancient Israelites were unworthy, God can still choose you to accomplish His plans.
Perhaps David is portrayed this way so that men in that society could identify with him. We already know that their scriptures are full of horrific acts against humanity, we know that they follow a God that condones the murder of women and children, and the rape of young girls, so perhaps the person(s) who invented David had to make him sound realistic to the audience.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Taz, posted 12-19-2006 12:44 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Taz, posted 01-12-2007 9:30 PM Brian has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 58 of 174 (376618)
01-12-2007 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Brian
01-12-2007 5:06 PM


Brian writes:
I think you might be taking David's tales a little too seriously.
Of course I am taking it seriously. Literally billions of people want the rest of us to follow the examples of ancient people. One of my past professors, which was a hebrew scholar, told me that he never understood why people keep wanting us to follow the examples of ancient people when it was obvious that they were savages. Remember the "kill every man, woman, child, and cattle" thing?
Why am I taking this so seriously? Because some people apparently would rather try to justify murder, rape, genocide, and a myriad other crimes committed by the savages of the ancient periods than admit that there is something seriously wrong with killing every man, woman, child, and cattle.
In the past, I have asked the following question: Is it right to kill a 2 year old boy just because he might try to harm Israel in the future? Out of all the fundies on this board, I got one answer from one person. Faith told me that yes it is right to kill a 2 year old toddler just because he might try to harm Israel in the future. It's not Faith that's my main point. It's all the people that didn't answer at all. What do you do whenever you are asked a question that you know your answer will make you look like a bad guy? Most of us wouldn't answer it. I suspect very much that that was the case with my question.
Anyway, now you know why I take the king david myth so seriously. Apparently, a lot of people out there think we should model our morality after the savages of the ancients.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Brian, posted 01-12-2007 5:06 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Brian, posted 01-14-2007 10:38 AM Taz has replied
 Message 76 by riVeRraT, posted 01-16-2007 10:11 AM Taz has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 59 of 174 (376906)
01-14-2007 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Taz
01-12-2007 9:30 PM


Of course I am taking it seriously. Literally billions of people want the rest of us to follow the examples of ancient people.
People want us to have the same morality as that of ancient near eastern peoples? I have never heard of this.
One of my past professors, which was a hebrew scholar, told me that he never understood why people keep wanting us to follow the examples of ancient people when it was obvious that they were savages. Remember the "kill every man, woman, child, and cattle" thing?
But this isn’t what Christianity promotes, in fact it is the complete opposite of what Jesus says in the NT.
These old ”rules of warfare’ were simply par for the course at the time, but they belong in the world of 3000 years ago. Christians do not argue that we should be wiping out whole nations.
Why am I taking this so seriously? Because some people apparently would rather try to justify murder, rape, genocide, and a myriad other crimes committed by the savages of the ancient periods than admit that there is something seriously wrong with killing every man, woman, child, and cattle.
But these people are only arguing this because they have a very weak faith. The idea that something in the Bible is ”wrong’ cannot be computed by their tiny brains. They aren’t even thinking about the question, they are only automatically trotting out a mantra to maintain their delusion that the Bible is from God.
You have to remember that these people are sub-normal and shouldn’t be confused with Christians.
In the past, I have asked the following question: Is it right to kill a 2 year old boy just because he might try to harm Israel in the future? Out of all the fundies on this board, I got one answer from one person. Faith told me that yes it is right to kill a 2 year old toddler just because he might try to harm Israel in the future. It's not Faith that's my main point.
Faith isn’t the full shilling, and she doesn’t care about anyone or anything other than her fairy tale book. She is beyond trying to rationally defend her stance and just distances herself from any responsibility by thinking that if God said or done something then we have no right to question it.
It's all the people that didn't answer at all.
Well I think these people obviously believe that the answer makes their God look bad, but these people are reading the Bible in the wrong context.
Anyway, now you know why I take the king david myth so seriously. Apparently, a lot of people out there think we should model our morality after the savages of the ancients.
But these are very few in number.
However, there are a couple of billion Christians who think we should model our morality on Jesus’ teachings.
Jesus says we should love our neighbours. Yahweh says the Israelites were to invade numerous settlements and slaughter the inhabitants etc.
Something has obviously changed.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Taz, posted 01-12-2007 9:30 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Taz, posted 01-14-2007 7:23 PM Brian has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 60 of 174 (377013)
01-14-2007 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Brian
01-14-2007 10:38 AM


Brian writes:
But these are very few in number.
While I don't know the exact figure, I think there more than just a few. Just about around the time of every election period I have to see at least half a dozen church signs that says like "AIDS is punishment for gay people" and "gay marriage is a joke... Leviticus says this and that" on a daily basis.
Somehow, I highly doubt that there are as few of them out there as you think.
Jesus says we should love our neighbours. Yahweh says the Israelites were to invade numerous settlements and slaughter the inhabitants etc.
If I am not mistaken, you are hinting on what I would interpret as the no true scotsman. Sure, I've met some pretty decent christians in my life. I've also met the bastard ones, and they all seem to say that the decent christians aren't really christians.
Something has obviously changed.
Sure it has. Fortunately for us, we've won the moral argument against slavery, genocide, etc. No government would stand up in front of the united nations and argue for their right to have slaves and to carry out ethnic cleansing, and yet I can think of at least half a dozen governments in the world that advocate such policy, one of which is a major nuclear power.
Same thing with the christians. Only a hand full (like Faith) would stand up and make an argument for god sanctioned genocides and such. But think of all the ones that don't say anything at all. They don't argue for OR against the acts. Don't know about you, but that tells me something about what they think deep down.
ADded by edit.
Notice how I asked a simple question and I haven't gotten a single straight foward answer yet.
Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Brian, posted 01-14-2007 10:38 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Brian, posted 01-15-2007 6:28 AM Taz has replied

  
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