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Author Topic:   Christianity, Knowledge and Science
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 106 of 221 (376394)
01-12-2007 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by iceage
01-12-2007 1:16 AM


You have taken a condescending tone to the superiority of your position.
Are you offended my lord?
EvC Forum: I met God
Warning! AdminPhat.
Edited by AdminPhat, : warning

Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 107 of 221 (376398)
01-12-2007 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Rob
01-12-2007 1:16 AM


Re: End of silly game playing
Asking Scotness
Do you know what pantheism means (no insult intended)?
I know more than that!
From thread 30 at Message 30
Apparently you also know less than that.
The title of your post in the referred thread is polytheism revealed
FYI, pantheism does not mean polytheism, nor does it mean the individual is God.
But how could (not would) you know, since you are seemingly presenting yourself as the final arbiter of English word definitions? Maybe you are more panthiest (according to your definition, not the rest of the world's) than you would like to admit.
Edited by anglagard, : Clarity and a bit of humor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Rob, posted 01-12-2007 1:16 AM Rob has replied

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 108 of 221 (376402)
01-12-2007 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by anglagard
01-12-2007 1:38 AM


Re: End of silly game playing
Well laugh all you want. I forgot to dot my T (get it? dot my T).
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.

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 Message 109 by sidelined, posted 01-12-2007 8:01 AM Rob has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 109 of 221 (376453)
01-12-2007 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Rob
01-12-2007 1:46 AM


Re: End of silly game playing
scotness
I am sure it was a result of being inundated with many replies however I was wondering if you could answer a question I asked you back in post #68 as revealed here?
scotness
scotness writes:
NO it doesn't. It stigmatizes knowledge of evil as terrible
I have a question then. Does it also stigmatize good as being terrible since the fruit was of the knowledge of both good and evil?
This answer of yours was in response to a statement by cocytus which says
cocytus writes:
Christianity has, within it's very first book Genesis, stigmatized knowledge itself as something terrible.
Perhaps you could help to clear up some confusion I have about your position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Rob, posted 01-12-2007 1:46 AM Rob has replied

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DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6080 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 110 of 221 (376460)
01-12-2007 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by anastasia
01-09-2007 6:04 PM


Science and the Bible
I've read some of your responses and now that I know you are catholic, I understand your internal commotion.
RCC is rarely if ever biblical. Sacred tradition rules. The verse you quote has nothing to do with what you propose and I hope someone has pointed that out to you. Since I'm coming in later than the middle of this thread. Also, I won't take time to exegete this verse with you.
BTW, what you are doing is called eisegesis.
The Bible does not contradict itself. Discovered in about fifty years of deliberate study.
The following will help you, I'm sure:
From Job 12
7 "But ask the animals, and they will teach you,
or the birds of the air, and they will tell you;
8 or speak to the earth, and it will teach you,
or let the fish of the sea inform you.
Statements Consistent With Paleontology
* Dinosaurs are referred to in several Bible books. The book of Job describes two dinosaurs. One is described in chapter 40 starting at verse 15, and the other in chapter 41 starting at verse 1. We think you will agree that 1 chapters about dinosaurs is a lot”since most people do not even realize that they are mentioned in the Bible. (Actually reading the Bible would help, though. smile ) Click this sentence to see our Dinosaurs page if you would like more information in this subject area.
Astronomy Statements Consistent With Astronomy
* The Bible frequently refers to the great number of stars in the heavens. Here are two examples.
Genesis 22:17
Blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.
Jeremiah 33:22
“As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.”
Even today, scientists admit that they do not know how many stars there are. Only about 3,000 can be seen with the naked eye. We have seen estimates of 1021 stars”which is a lot of stars.[2] (The number of grains of sand on the earth’s seashores is estimated to be 1025. As scientists discover more stars, wouldn’t it be interesting to discover that these two numbers match?)
* The Bible also says that each star is unique.
1 Corinthians 15:41
There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
All stars look alike to the naked eye.* Even when seen through a telescope, they seem to be just points of light. However, analysis of their light spectra reveals that each is unique and different from all others.[1] (*Note: We understand that people can perceive some slight difference in color and apparent brightness when looking at stars with the naked eye, but we would not expect a person living in the first century A.D. to claim they differ from one another.)
* The Bible describes the precision of movement in the universe.
Jeremiah 31:35,36
Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
“If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
* The Bible describes the suspension of the Earth in space.
Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.
Meteorology Statements Consistent With Meteorology
* The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere.
Ecclesiastes 1:6
The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit.
* The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.
Job 28:25
To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure.
The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago. The relative weights of air and water are needed for the efficient functioning of the world’s hydrologic cycle, which in turn sustains life on the earth.[1] (If you are a physics enthusiast, please ignore our omission of the terms mass, gravity, and density from this comment.)
Biology Statements Consistent With Biology
* The book of Leviticus (written prior to 1400 BC) describes the value of blood.
Leviticus 17:11
”For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’
The blood carries water and nourishment to every cell, maintains the body’s temperature, and removes the waste material of the body’s cells. The blood also carries oxygen from the lungs throughout the body. In 1616, William Harvey discovered that blood circulation is the key factor in physical life”confirming what the Bible revealed 3,000 years earlier.[1]
* The Bible describes biogenesis (the development of living organisms from other living organisms) and the stability of each kind of living organism.
Genesis 1:11,12
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:21
So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:25
And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
The phrase “according to its kind” occurs repeatedly, stressing the reproductive integrity of each kind of animal and plant. Today we know this occurs because all of these reproductive systems are programmed by their genetic codes.[1]
* The Bible describes the chemical nature of flesh.
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.
* It is a proven fact that a person’s mental and spiritual health is strongly correlated with physical health.[1] The Bible revealed this to us with these statements (and others) written by King Solomon about 950 BC.
Proverbs 12:4
An excellent wife is the crown of her husband,
But she who causes shame is like rottenness in his bones.
Proverbs 14:30
A sound heart is life to the body,
But envy is rottenness to the bones.
Proverbs 15:30
The light of the eyes rejoices the heart,
And a good report makes the bones healthy.
Proverbs 16:24
Pleasant words are like a honeycomb,
Sweetness to the soul and health to the bones.
Proverbs 17:22
A merry heart does good, like medicine,
But a broken spirit dries the bones.
Anthropology Statements Consistent With Anthropology
* We have cave paintings and other evidence that people inhabited caves. The Bible also describes cave men.
Job 30:5,6
They were driven out from among men,
They shouted at them as at a thief.
They had to live in the clefts of the valleys,
In caves of the earth and the rocks.
Note that these were not ape-men, but descendants of those who scattered from Babel. They were driven from the community by those tribes who competed successfully for the more desirable regions of the earth. Then for some reason they deteriorated mentally, physically, and spiritually.[1] (Go into a bad part of your town and you will see this concept in action today.)
Hydrology Statements Consistent With Hydrology
* The bible includes reasonably complete descriptions of the hydrologic cycle.[3]
Psalm 135:7
He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
He makes lightning for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.
Jeremiah 10:13
When He utters His voice,
There is a multitude of waters in the heavens:
“And He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth.
He makes lightning for the rain,
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.”
In these verses you can see several phases of the hydrologic cycle”the worldwide processes of evaporation, translation aloft by atmospheric circulation, condensation with electrical discharges, and precipitation.[1]
Job 36:27-29
For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?
This simple verse has remarkable scientific insight. The drops of water which eventually pour down as rain first become vapor and then condense to tiny liquid water droplets in the clouds. These finally coalesce into drops large enough to overcome the updrafts that suspend them in the air.[1]
* The Bible describes the recirculation of water.
Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again.
Isaiah 55:10
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
* The Bible refers to the surprising amount of water that can be held as condensation in clouds.
Job 26:8
He binds up the water in His thick clouds,
Yet the clouds are not broken under it.
Job 37:11
Also with moisture He saturates the thick clouds;
He scatters His bright clouds.
* Hydrothermal vents[4] are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC”more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.
Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
We discuss the “fountains of the great deep” further in our Creation Versus Evolution page.
Geology Statements Consistent With Geology
* The Bible describes the Earth’s crust (along with a comment on astronomy).
Jeremiah 31:37
Thus says the LORD:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.”
Although some scientists claim that they have now measured the size of the universe, it is interesting to note that every human attempt to drill through the earth’s crust to the plastic mantle beneath has, thus far, ended in failure.[1]
* The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.
Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
The word translated “circle” here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated “circuit,” or “compass” (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched”not something that is flat or square.
The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere in this book On the Heavens.
This brings up an important historical note related to this topic. Many people are aware of the conflict between Galileo and the Roman Catholic Pope, Paul V. After publishing A Dialogue on the Two Principal Systems of the World, Galileo was summoned to Rome, where he was forced to renounce his findings. (At that time, “theologians” of the Roman Catholic Church maintained that the Earth was the center of the universe, and to assert otherwise was deemed heretical.)
We could not find any place in the Bible that claims that the Earth is flat, or that it is the center of the universe. History shows that this conflict, which took place at the time of the Inquisition, was part of a power struggle. As a result, scientific and biblical knowledge became casualties”an effect we still feel to this day.
Physics Statements Consistent With Physics
* The Bible suggests the presence of nuclear processes like those we associate with nuclear weaponry. This is certainly not something that could have been explained in 67 AD using known scientific principles (when Peter wrote the following verse).
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
* The television is a practical (if not always worthwhile smile ) device that uses electromagnetic waves (which transmit its video signal). The Bible contains passages that describe something like television”something that allows everyone on earth see a single event. (Note: such passages typically refer to the end of time. It may not be long before all of us learn for sure whether the Bible is true or not.)
Matthew 24:30
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Revelation 11:9-11
Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
Job 12 NIV - Job - Then Job replied: Doubtless - Bible Gateway
I titled this 'science AND the Bible', because the Bible is not a science book. We are given dominion of this earth and clearly to explore and find its mysteries. Enjoy!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by anastasia, posted 01-09-2007 6:04 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6080 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 111 of 221 (376462)
01-12-2007 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
01-10-2007 11:33 PM


Scientific study is an imperative for
the Christian. And yes, it is our responsibility and privilege to explore the world we inhabit, and by our self-imposed limits, inhibit.
From Job 12 and see my other post if you wish:
7 "But ask the animals, and they will teach you,
or the birds of the air, and they will tell you;
8 or speak to the earth, and it will teach you,
or let the fish of the sea inform you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 01-10-2007 11:33 PM jar has replied

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 112 of 221 (376469)
01-12-2007 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by sidelined
01-12-2007 8:01 AM


Re: End of silly game playing
I have a question then. Does it also stigmatize good as being terrible since the fruit was of the knowledge of both good and evil?
Well, here is what I said to Cocytus, then I'll add more to clarify:
Cocytus said:
Christianity has, within it's very first book Genesis, stigmatized knowledge itself as something terrible.
My response was:
NO it doesn't. It stigmatizes knowledge of evil as terrible. And that is precisely why Judeo-Christian assumptions are correct.
There is so much we do not know... should we know it all?
For example, I don't think anyone had the kind of knowledge that Josef Mengala tried to shed light on, as he castrated and experimented on young boys in Germany.
Just think of all the things we don't know. There is so much hell yet to be unleashed.
You see Sidelined, God knows all in terms of cause and result. He can see when knowledge crosses the line. But He is Spirit, so it's not as though he does those things.
We on the other hand live in the physical world, so those ideas (that are potential evils) have material consequences and become evil.
It's not as though things are always good and evil. There is some knowledge that is good in it's proper time and place, that is bad if we decide to take it now and use it at the wrong time.
Only God can give that kind of insight and help reprogram us from being enslaved by our fleshy instincts.
There is some confusion that God gets to do all these things and will not share with us the pleasure. No... if you want to know what God would do in the physical world, look at His sinless Son.
And also look at what we did to Him...
Of course good is not terrible... but how do we know what is good and what is evil, and when, and how, and for what ultimate purpose?
Why someone elses purpose instead of ours? Hitler wasn't going to give up his naturalistic framework for anyone. He followed the logic all the way off the cliff. But his starting point was flawed. We are not just blood and soil.

Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by iceage, posted 01-12-2007 12:58 PM Rob has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 113 of 221 (376474)
01-12-2007 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by DorfMan
01-12-2007 9:05 AM


Re: Scientific study is an imperative for
If by your other post you mean Message 110, it began on a major fallacy and immediately moved on to another and so I just stopped reading at that point.
The Bible is full of contradictions from the very first chapters right through to the end. There is also nothing of a scientific nature to be learned from the Bible.
I do agree though that we must study science. What you did with the Biblical quotes though was not study but simply word games. It may have been fun and if it makes you happy fine, but to pretend that they are scientific statements or that there is any knowledge in what you did is frankly, just nonsense.
Unless of course it was a parody and then it was great.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 114 of 221 (376517)
01-12-2007 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by DorfMan
01-12-2007 8:49 AM


Re: Science and the Bible
DorfMan writes:
I understand your internal commotion.
Hi DorfMan. I am not sure if I have an internal commotion. I think you are assuming one for me. Or maybe you could be more specific?
RCC is rarely if ever biblical. Sacred tradition rules.
That is not true. RCC is Biblical to the utmost extent which human understanding allows. The gaps in the scriptural picture are filled out with Sacred Tradition and human reasoning.
The verse you quote has nothing to do with what you propose
Do you mean the 'verse' from Augustine? Are you suggesting that modern science has proved him wrong, and that we should insist on Biblical science even when it contradicts what we observe with our senses?
It's somewhat enetertaining to imagine the possibility of science being revealed in the Bible...but still neither here nor there when it comes to asking ourselves 'why' would God care if we knew about science? If He created everything, doesn't He already know the ability we have to look around us and make discoveries?
Let's look at you examples;
From Job 12
7 "But ask the animals, and they will teach you,
or the birds of the air, and they will tell you;
This verse is out of context, but just from what you have quoted, God says 'LOOK AT NATURE', and it will tell you, not 'Look at the Bible'.
Dinosaurs are referred to in several Bible books.
So what? No offense, but I mean, many animals are. If dinosaurs lived and we have evidence for that, it could have been common knowledge, at least from oral tradition, in Biblical times. Even if you prove that Job was talking about dinosaurs, it doesn't prove that he had any mystically imparted scientific knowledge.
The Bible frequently refers to the great number of stars in the heavens.
Again, so what? All the Bible says is that there are countless stars and countless grains of sand. Anyone with their naked eye can see that.
Corinthians writes:
There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory
Sounds like Paul is being very un-scientific and calling the sun and the moon both stars, which is fine, because all he is doing is making an analogy with the varying degrees of brightness visible in heavenly objects, again, visible to the naked eye. Your conclusaion doesn't add up. As your source says, living people in the first century CAN see a difference in the stars, hey, even I can, and I am half blind. The only thing you are proving is that we now know WHY they look different, and I don't see Paul explaining that. Besides, the wording in the phrase doesn't mean that one STAR differs from another; it refers back to the three types of 'stars' Paul saw. He say 'for...one star differs from another' not 'and...one star differs from another'.
The rest of your examples can be broken down in the same way. In all cases the language is so general as to sound scientific and very ignorant of science, depending on who is reading the text. It is certain that blood would be very mysterious to ancient man, but all sorts of useless medical procedures revolved around the erroneus conclusions of the nature and importance of blood.
There is really nothing cryptic about these passages. It is all easily observable or blatant symbology.
P.S.,...I am wishing your scientists monumental success in counting the grains of sand...I wouldn't want to be responsible for seperating the real sand from the fossilized seashells and volcaninc ash, let alone the part of the shore where you find grains of sand mixed with sediment and/or earth.

This message is a reply to:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 115 of 221 (376525)
01-12-2007 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Rob
01-12-2007 9:51 AM


Re: End of silly game playing
scottness writes:
And also look at what we did to Him...
How can lowly humans do anything to the omniscience all powerful God?
Wasn't the crucification preordained and prophesied? So how can lowly humans have done anything.
It is like if one wrote a bug into a computer program and when the program was executed and crashed one blames the code or the computer and not the programmer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Rob, posted 01-12-2007 9:51 AM Rob has replied

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 116 of 221 (376672)
01-13-2007 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by iceage
01-12-2007 12:58 PM


Re: It's God's fault
How can lowly humans do anything to the omniscience all powerful God?
If you were God, would you allow them freedom? Or would you create nonsentient robots as your neighbors?
Wasn't the crucification preordained and prophesied? So how can lowly humans have done anything.
That one's tough... real tough!
It is like if one wrote a bug into a computer program and when the program was executed and crashed, one blames the code or the computer and not the programmer.
Well God told us not to eat the bug. But then again, God did put it there huh?
I see your point; God is ultimately responsible.
If He is good, He will give us an out...
But what if He took responsibility and paid with his own life rather than condmen us?
Would you take that out?
If not, then How does God condemn you?

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 117 of 221 (376673)
01-13-2007 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by jar
01-11-2007 6:53 PM


Re: on barriers to knowledge.
Your problem with that position is that I am definitely the product of a Religious Education
As I have seen from your comprehensive belief statement.
Religious it may have been but religious education of a particularly enlightened sort that many of faith are not so lucky to have experienced. It is those that are the problem and my point stands.
I still maintain that the combination of irrational and untestable conclusions regarding the physical world that religious convictions undoubtably do result in, will inevitably foster the sorts of anti science cultures of ignorance we are discussing. Indeed is the main cause.
I have got to ask. Throughout this thread I have provided links to outside Christian sources, the Christian Alliance for Progress, The Clergy Letter, A Catechism of Creation: An Episcopal Understanding and the Pastoral Letter from Bishop Sims. Have you checked out those sources?
Not all in depth. But I am genuinely interested enough in the position you represent to have followed up to some extent
I believe that GOD created all that is, seen and unseen. When we study Evolution, or Cosmology, (I don't want to just limit it to the Big Bang because someday we may even get a glimpse beneath the structure we know as our Universe, for example: string theory and branes) we are learning How GOD did it.
As I suspected, little to quibble with there. However I would be interested to know specifically your view on the idea of quantum fluctuations as a beginning to our universe, the potential inherent randomness this represents and Gods role (or more specifically lack of need for a role) in this process.
I am not unique or all that unusual. There are many, many Christians that think much like me, some even here at EvC and even a Good Papist member from your side of the pond.
Were it that all believers were so rational.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 01-11-2007 6:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 01-13-2007 1:59 PM Straggler has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 118 of 221 (376678)
01-13-2007 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Rob
01-13-2007 3:12 AM


Re: It's God's fault
scottness writes:
But what if He took responsibility and paid with his own life rather than condmen us?
Paid whom?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Rob, posted 01-13-2007 3:12 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Rob, posted 01-13-2007 3:26 AM ringo has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 119 of 221 (376679)
01-13-2007 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by anastasia
01-11-2007 11:44 PM


Re: On Stem Cell Research
You are begging the question a bit...I have to ask; if those in power decide that stem cell research is good isn't it still untestable?
No
The reasons for deciding stem cell research is a good thing are concrete, rational, testable and practically unarguable. It will aid in ending vast amounts of human suffering by providing knowledge for cures and prevention to debilitating illness. There is no faith involved in that position whatsoever.
The argument for stem cell research being bad are to all intents and purposes non existent. It boils down to 'I have faith' and that in itself is no argument at all.
What single reason is there to think that anything, but particularly a few cells, has any claim to possessing an everlasting soul???
There is a third choice; since we don't know, we won't make any assumptions, but carry on with progress using the knowledge that we DO have.
All of the KNOWLEDGE that we have exclusively indicates that stem cell research is a good thing.
There is no KNOWLEDGE to the contrary (unless you can show otherwise)
Your 'don't know' position assumes the basis and knowledge pertaining to the two options are equal.
They most definitely are not.
If I was part of a cult that believed that trees contain the intangible spirits of as yet unborn people before they inhabit human bodies and that cutting trees down was therefore immoral and tantamount to some sort murder would you support me in my quest to stop wood and paper being used on the basis that my unprovable claim might be correct?
How is this different?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by anastasia, posted 01-11-2007 11:44 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 120 of 221 (376680)
01-13-2007 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by ringo
01-13-2007 3:23 AM


Re: It's God's fault
Paid whom?
His own demand for justice; Himself!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 01-13-2007 3:23 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 01-13-2007 3:31 AM Rob has replied

  
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