Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   King David found guilty on all counts.
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 174 (377031)
01-14-2007 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Taz
12-18-2006 11:24 AM


Sometimes you feel attracted to someone else's mate or potential mate, and it's understandable. We are all human. What I don't get is there are many many other women out there. Why would you feel the need to conspire to commit murder just to satisfy your moment of lust?
This is further proof that our sense of morality nowadays is far superior to the people in biblical times.
Humans are unchanging. Humans cannot be said to be more moral in one generation than in that of a different generation because "human nature" does not change. Every behavior is encompassed within human nature. Human history shows a redundant and repetitive typical nature.
Furthermore, one could cite millions of examples of "good deeds" or morally right actions which happened in "biblical times" and as well cite millions of immoral action done "nowadays".
Your argument and the argument which is represented by your post which has been debated at length in a previous thread frivolously, is not one of thought.
What makes you think that humans change? That humans are capable of change? Humans cannot transform and change their nature. A brief and simple study of what it means to be human would tell you that. But you're not into truth are you? You're into representing one side of this laughable argument against another group of those who are not interested in truth. Change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Taz, posted 12-18-2006 11:24 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Taz, posted 01-14-2007 11:16 PM joshua221 has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 62 of 174 (377064)
01-14-2007 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by joshua221
01-14-2007 8:52 PM


ultra writes:
What makes you think that humans change?
Well, we've won the moral debate on slavery, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and a myriad of other things that were common in the past.
That humans are capable of change?
Well, the founding fathers of this country, for example, owned slaves and thought women were inferior.
Humans cannot transform and change their nature.
Sure, we can. I used to believe in god. I used to follow blindly the things that I were taught, which was to hate everyone who's not a protestant white male.
But you're not into truth are you? You're into representing one side of this laughable argument against another group of those who are not interested in truth. Change.
Quite frankly, I don't care much for the so-called "truth" that you people seem to waver around as if it means anything.
Wanna give me something more than just sentences you pulled out of fortune cookies?
Added by edit.
PS If you would like to discuss the subject of the changing (or unchanging) nature of man, I would be glad to discuss this with you in a new thread with it as the topic. Or, we could do a great debate. Whatever you want.
Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by joshua221, posted 01-14-2007 8:52 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by joshua221, posted 01-14-2007 11:49 PM Taz has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 174 (377069)
01-14-2007 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Taz
01-14-2007 11:16 PM


Well, we've won the moral debate on slavery, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and a myriad of other things that were common in the past.
Are you saying that slavery is gone now? That we have won the "moral debate" on slavery?
Slavery is being used through the sweatshops that create every piece of clothing you own.
Genocide is being committed in Iraq with our troops. Iraqi Death Toll.
"And a myriad of other things"
You are living in some kind of fantasy. There is no moral debate, there is the human tendency to live for oneself and to be mediocre.
Well, the founding fathers of this country, for example, owned slaves and thought women were inferior.
Well you eat large meals while others starve. See how mindless this is? (Your Argument)
Quite frankly, I don't care much for the so-called "truth" that you people seem to waver around as if it means anything.
I know, you don't like thought because it makes you uncomfortable.
PS If you would like to discuss the subject of the changing (or unchanging) nature of man, I would be glad to discuss this with you in a new thread with it as the topic. Or, we could do a great debate. Whatever you want.
I think it's over now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Taz, posted 01-14-2007 11:16 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Taz, posted 01-15-2007 3:19 AM joshua221 has replied
 Message 66 by ReverendDG, posted 01-15-2007 6:47 AM joshua221 has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 64 of 174 (377119)
01-15-2007 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by joshua221
01-14-2007 11:49 PM


My question is how old are you? You are not really reading what I am saying. You seem to be reading what you want to see.
Are you saying that slavery is gone now? That we have won the "moral debate" on slavery?
Just because we've won the moral debate on slavery doesn't mean it is gone. Countries such as China, Haiti, and Thailand would never stand up in front of the united nations and proclaim their support for slavery BECAUSE we've won the moral argument against it. However, all of these governments advocate slavery of some forms.
Genocide is being committed in Iraq with our troops. Iraqi Death Toll.
While I don't agree with what's happening in Iraq, I don't appreciate people's use of the word "genocide" to describe such a situation. It downplays the real genocides that happened in the past and are still happening elsewhere around the world. If you have any respect for victims of real genocides out there, please refrain from overusing such term.
Again, no government would stand up in front of the world to proclaim their support for genocide BECAUSE we've won the moral debate against it, yet these things are still happening.
You are living in some kind of fantasy. There is no moral debate, there is the human tendency to live for oneself and to be mediocre.
Again, I don't know you, but how old are you? Your age is really showing here.
Well you eat large meals while others starve. See how mindless this is?
And what's your point? BTW dude, I don't eat large meals. I'm a health nut.
I know, you don't like thought because it makes you uncomfortable.
Well, it makes me uncomfortable knowing someone like you is out there... someone that manages to completely misread and misinterpret almost everything I said.
I think it's over now.
If you wish.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by joshua221, posted 01-14-2007 11:49 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by joshua221, posted 01-15-2007 9:59 PM Taz has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 65 of 174 (377148)
01-15-2007 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Taz
01-14-2007 7:23 PM


While I don't know the exact figure, I think there more than just a few. Just about around the time of every election period I have to see at least half a dozen church signs that says like "AIDS is punishment for gay people" and "gay marriage is a joke... Leviticus says this and that" on a daily basis.
Somehow, I highly doubt that there are as few of them out there as you think.
It is obviously a bigger problem in your area than it is in Scotland.
If I am not mistaken, you are hinting on what I would interpret as the no true scotsman. Sure, I've met some pretty decent christians in my life. I've also met the bastard ones, and they all seem to say that the decent christians aren't really christians.
No I was more hinting at that these people should be looking at the morals of Jesus rather than the morals of the authors of some ancient Jewish campfire tales.
Personally, I have decided that if someone calls themselves a Christian I believe that they think they are one. However, if I see one of these people blatantly contradicting the teachings of Jesus in the NT, then I no longer consider them to be Christian. It doesn’t mean they aren’t, it just means that I don’t regard them as Christian.
Christians who hearken back to the early days of the Bible appear to forget that there is a new covenant for them now, there is a new deal between them and God, a deal that means loving your neighbour instead of killing him and screwing his widow and/or daughter(s).
I’ve known a lot of horrible people over the years who call themselves Christians, a couple of them have actually been pastors, and American I may add, but, just like you, I have met many very decent Christians who would do anything for anyone and are clearly getting something different out of their faith than these hate mongers you speak of.
I still tutor p/t at uni, and we get quite a lot of religious groups preaching around the uni and in the town centre to some extent. I have heard some horrendous things from these people and, over a post seminar cup of tea, I have shared these things with some of the students who are trainee Church of Scotland ministers, and every single one has been horrified by what some of these groups preach. But they are a tiny minority over here, and they are pitied rather than hated.
All I was getting at is that if these people want to call themselves Christian then they should follow the teachings of the one they take their name from, the one who made the New Covenant or the New Testament with them, and forget the old ways that Jesus message has now superseded.
Sure it has. Fortunately for us, we've won the moral argument against slavery, genocide, etc. No government would stand up in front of the united nations and argue for their right to have slaves and to carry out ethnic cleansing, and yet I can think of at least half a dozen governments in the world that advocate such policy, one of which is a major nuclear power.
Yes, I agree, and this just proves that morality is shoed by society rather than some wee God up in the sky.
Same thing with the christians. Only a hand full (like Faith) would stand up and make an argument for god sanctioned genocides and such.
Faith is retarded though. She doesn’t even care to try and justify why these atrocities are okay with her, unless you can call her robotic following of what she thinks God is some sort of justification. Faith, and those of her ilk, have deep deep psychological problems, and they really should have some sort of therapy. It is a shame.
But think of all the ones that don't say anything at all.
Think of the ones who speak out against it though. Think of the ones who acknowledge that during the time that these stories represent that this was the way ancient societies were. Many Christians realise that these days belong in the past, and that their faith teaches the opposite to these barbarities.
They don't argue for OR against the acts.
Many don’t have the capability to think though, this is the problem, and I think one of the reasons why the USA has so many of these people is the education system out there. Parents seem to be allowed to abuse their kids in the USA by forcing them to believe that 2+2=5, we wont stop these morons who take the Bible literally until they get a better basic education.
Don't know about you, but that tells me something about what they think deep down.
Deep down they want to believe everything in the Bible is true, to the letter, and deep down they probably believe that there is an apologetic somewhere that will justify a certain ”problem’ to them. Just look at the crank apologists that get linked to by Christians here, 99% spend most of their time howling at the moon.
These people know that there is something inherently wrong about slaughtering POW’s and raping the young female survivors, but they cannot be seen to criticise their God. The thing is, if they would educate themselves in the history of the ancient near east they would see that this was a common practise (the ban) carried out by many different groups. They could then accept that perhaps God was instructing them to act in a way that was acceptable at the time, and it was acceptable at the time, although it is frowned upon now.
If they educated themselves they would also know that events such as Jericho simply didn’t even happen.
Notice how I asked a simple question and I haven't gotten a single straight foward answer yet.
Oh you have danced the dance before as have I many times. But you know their answer as well as they do, it is the admitting it that they have the problem with.
Brian.
Edited by Brian, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Taz, posted 01-14-2007 7:23 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Taz, posted 01-15-2007 12:24 PM Brian has replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 66 of 174 (377149)
01-15-2007 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by joshua221
01-14-2007 11:49 PM


Are you saying that slavery is gone now? That we have won the "moral debate" on slavery?
pretty much we have, do you know of one country that publicly advicates it?
Slavery is being used through the sweatshops that create every piece of clothing you own.
i think your use of slavery down plays what the companies do and what real slavery was in this country, the sweatshops suck, but yu can't publicly sell people or buy them as property, so its not slavery
its exploiting people that want food and are willing to work for noth
Genocide is being committed in Iraq with our troops. Iraqi Death Toll.
go look up what genocide is please, until we systematicly start wiping out the iraqi people, calling it genocide is pure flamebait
You are living in some kind of fantasy. There is no moral debate, there is the human tendency to live for oneself and to be mediocre.
thats complete bullshit, maybe you need to check outside your own little box, but people care, its hard sometimes but people just plain care till it bleeds
Well you eat large meals while others starve. See how mindless this is? (Your Argument)
don't you see how irrelevent this is? what does this have to do with anything? they are starving because thier goverments don't give a damn about them not because of us
I know, you don't like thought because it makes you uncomfortable.
the so called 'truth' you spew seems more like venom aganst those who don't agree with you staight out, try reading some history, you could learn a lot
the fact is in the last 100 years the human race has changed ethicly
I think it's over now.
yes because you have no argument, just your cynical worldview of humanity
i will admit i am a cynic but i still, have some hope and i can see the history of humanity get a bit better and more caring for others

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by joshua221, posted 01-14-2007 11:49 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Taz, posted 01-15-2007 12:17 PM ReverendDG has not replied
 Message 72 by joshua221, posted 01-15-2007 10:08 PM ReverendDG has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 67 of 174 (377179)
01-15-2007 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by ReverendDG
01-15-2007 6:47 AM


Rev writes:
yes because you have no argument, just your cynical worldview of humanity...
This is because the way he talked is exactly like the way angry teens with raging hormones talk. They think they know everything and they think the rest of us are dumbasses. I think I will try to ignore him in the future.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ReverendDG, posted 01-15-2007 6:47 AM ReverendDG has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 68 of 174 (377181)
01-15-2007 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Brian
01-15-2007 6:28 AM


Brian writes:
But you know their answer as well as they do, it is the admitting it that they have the problem with.
Am I the only one here who thinks if christians like these are as righteous as they make themselves out to be everytime they protest against the rest of us sinners, then the least they could do is admit something as simple as what I have pointed out?
May be I am just a bad person, but I am getting tired of seeing the following pattern over and over: (1) Make excuses for atrocities, (2) avoid the question, (3) if asked again avoid it again, (4) play dumb and say they don't know what you're talking about hoping you'd let it go or that you don't know which verse to specifically talk about, (5) be dense and say they don't understand what you are talking about, (6) and finally when all else failed just ignore you overall.
If I'm wrong, just point it out to me. I'm not going to learn anything if they don't correct me.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Brian, posted 01-15-2007 6:28 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Brian, posted 01-15-2007 1:12 PM Taz has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 69 of 174 (377188)
01-15-2007 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Taz
01-15-2007 12:24 PM


May be I am just a bad person, but I am getting tired of seeing the following pattern over and over: (1) Make excuses for atrocities, (2) avoid the question, (3) if asked again avoid it again, (4) play dumb and say they don't know what you're talking about hoping you'd let it go or that you don't know which verse to specifically talk about, (5) be dense and say they don't understand what you are talking about, (6) and finally when all else failed just ignore you overall.
This is what we have all been putting up with for years!
It took me a long time to figure out that some people just are not worth arguing with. I would keep asking, asking, asking, with similar results to your own, but after a few years I decided that my time would be better spent on more productive things.
Now, when I have a couple of interchanges with a fundy, if there is no progress I just do my best to ignore them. The lurkers know who the good and the bad guys are, they know who is honest and who isn't and if I do get involved in a prolonged discussion with a fundy it is for the lurkers and not the fundy that I keep dialogue going. We both know that we arent going to make these people change thier mind about anything, but we can help to inform the people reading the posts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Taz, posted 01-15-2007 12:24 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Taz, posted 01-15-2007 3:58 PM Brian has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 70 of 174 (377214)
01-15-2007 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Brian
01-15-2007 1:12 PM


But the people I'm engaging here aren't like Faith and scottness. These two actually have a reputation of being decent. If it was scottness or Faith or the guy from Ireland (Faith's brother... can't remember his name), I wouldn't have asked the question at all.
The lurkers know who the good and the bad guys are, they know who is honest and who isn't and if I do get involved in a prolonged discussion with a fundy it is for the lurkers and not the fundy that I keep dialogue going.
This is putting too much faith in the lurkers, don't you think?
I have a story about this actually.
A few months ago, I went to somewhat of a family reunion. During dinner, somehow the topic of china and communism came up. I pointed out that the Chinese will be selling Chinese made cars in America pretty soon and that in a couple years we could be seeing the "Cheetah" (sp?) on our roads. In return, Toy R Us will be selling their products in China. My father said that because China is a communist country everybody in there is poor so they can't afford to buy toys. I pointed out that while politically China is still a totalitarian state, they have adopted many economic policies from the west. Cities like Shanghai and HongKong are major economic centers.
I went ahead and said that the communist party in China nowadays have gotten smarter since the cultural revolution and Mao's economic 5 year plan that starved a hundred or so million Chinese. Nowadays, they allow some leeway so their people are at least not starving and are now using cars rather than bikes.
I may be wrong on some of these points (I'm not that much into politics!). Anyway, this made my father mad and he started to yell (it's a tradition for my father to yell over nothing). He began to point out all the bad things Mao did and how he singlehandedly killed more people than anyone else in history. My father pointed out that communism seeks to make everyone poor. He went for a little while with that. At the end, he pointed out that it is rediculous for me to suggest that everybody in China is rich.
In other words, my father blatently used a strawman against me. After he said that last thing, the rest of the family agreed that indeed it was rediculous for me to suggest that everyone in China is a millionaire.
The point is lurkers (or listeners) tend to lean toward the side that makes the most incredible, most impressive, and loudest claims. This is virtually true of all the real live creation vs. evolution debates I have been to. I have seen biologists, astro-physicists, and professors get ripped apart by the most ignorant people I've seen just because they know how to connect with the crowd more.
I've lost much faith in the lurkers and listeners. There is an old saying: Sunshine is the most effective disinfectant. We have to make it known to people that the other side of the debate is full of it, and we do that by making it obvious.
At this point, I'm willing to bet that half the lurkers out there think I am just an ass picking on Riverrat and Phat and that their silence means that they are too wise to talk to me who have no wisdom.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Brian, posted 01-15-2007 1:12 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by joshua221, posted 01-15-2007 10:16 PM Taz has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 174 (377281)
01-15-2007 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Taz
01-15-2007 3:19 AM


Just because we've won the moral debate on slavery doesn't mean it is gone. Countries such as China, Haiti, and Thailand would never stand up in front of the united nations and proclaim their support for slavery BECAUSE we've won the moral argument against it. However, all of these governments advocate slavery of some forms.
AMERICAN CORPORATIONS USE SLAVERY.
This moral debate you are referring to is false.
While I don't agree with what's happening in Iraq, I don't appreciate people's use of the word "genocide" to describe such a situation. It downplays the real genocides that happened in the past and are still happening elsewhere around the world. If you have any respect for victims of real genocides out there, please refrain from overusing such term.
You have an disgustingly low standards for human life.
Again, no government would stand up in front of the world to proclaim their support for genocide BECAUSE we've won the moral debate against it, yet these things are still happening.
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
What you are saying is just plain false. Such bullcrap haha. Re-read that please!!
Well, I think it's over now, just admit that your argument is wrong.
To stand up for your original position you are blinding yourself with false information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Taz, posted 01-15-2007 3:19 AM Taz has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 174 (377284)
01-15-2007 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by ReverendDG
01-15-2007 6:47 AM


i think your use of slavery down plays what the companies do and what real slavery was in this country, the sweatshops suck, but yu can't publicly sell people or buy them as property, so its not slavery
its exploiting people that want food and are willing to work for noth
SO WHAT IS IT??? STOP TRYING TO WEASEL YOUR WAYS AROUND IT!!!
IT IS COMPLETELY SLAVERY!!! To deny that is to think nothing of human life!!!!
go look up what genocide is please, until we systematicly start wiping out the iraqi people, calling it genocide is pure flamebait
AGAIN, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO CALL IT???? GO LOOK UP THE IRAQI DEATH TOLL!!!!
thats complete bullshit, maybe you need to check outside your own little box, but people care, its hard sometimes but people just plain care till it bleeds
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!??!!
Whatever bruddah IZ!!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ReverendDG, posted 01-15-2007 6:47 AM ReverendDG has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 174 (377285)
01-15-2007 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Taz
01-15-2007 3:58 PM


Neither of you are some sort of Martyr. From what I have observed most of you are just simple people who take "either side" of the argument and write absurd posts back and forth. It's a joke.
You: Morality is increasing as time goes on, I mean look, we don't have slavery anymore!
Them: Morality is SOO decreasing you fool, teen drug use has shot up and look at all the abortions and gay mariages.
I can take all of your arguments and outline them so simply. There are no martyrs here, there are a bunch of people who don't like to think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Taz, posted 01-15-2007 3:58 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by anglagard, posted 01-15-2007 10:33 PM joshua221 has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 74 of 174 (377287)
01-15-2007 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by joshua221
01-15-2007 10:16 PM


Let Those Without Sin Cast the First Stone
Prophex, before you or your twin brother criticize everyone else for not contributing that great work you seem to so demand, why don't you show the world your genius by actually doing something other than suck off your parent's teat?
You may find it is even more difficult than posting on-topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by joshua221, posted 01-15-2007 10:16 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by joshua221, posted 01-15-2007 10:42 PM anglagard has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 174 (377288)
01-15-2007 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by anglagard
01-15-2007 10:33 PM


Re: Let Those Without Sin Cast the First Stone
The only reason why I posted it was because of these two discussing themselves as martyrs for the lurkers, it's funny and absurd. Something had to be said.
Like he said people will believe this "outrageous" stuff. lol
EDIT: It wasn't intended to be out of maliciousness. Or to hurt anybody's feelings.
Edited by ultrahireebok, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by anglagard, posted 01-15-2007 10:33 PM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Brian, posted 01-16-2007 11:24 AM joshua221 has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024