egotheistic pantheism revealed...

All of your posturing and trying to make it seem like I am the exclusive one misses the point...Jesus Christ spoke to his own exclusivity. He is the one who rebukes you, and yes, I believe Him.You are more than welcome to become a Christian. It is inclusive in that regard. Just as I am welcome to become a pantheist if I give up my narrow view of diety.Here below is a great mystery... If you can solve it, your eyes will be opened. But speaking for myself I could not understand it until I took a regressive journey. But I offer it because I am admitedly not as intelligent as some of you. Perhaps you will see before the fact.Mathew 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

You are still making the leap that being one with the divine is the same as being God. And you are ultimately making the point that being a small part of something is the same as being the something.Is a carbon atom on your big toe, Rob?Being one with the divine is not pantheism.
Being God is not pantheism.Sure - being made out of the same substance of the divine is closing in on the concept, though that is of course, monism rather than pantheism.I'd give it up as a bad job and simply change the words you are using because they are misleading and are distracting from whatever points your are trying to make.

I'll finish it for you. There was no fine in my story. The punishment was getting terminated.The good Boss won't fire you if you tried to get to work, as long as he knows you really tried.He will send out his right-hand man to help you, and if you still fail, the right hand man will take the blame, so that you have another chance. Then, if you STILL fail, same thing, you are forgiven if you tried.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.It is a carbon copy, not an original since we are dealing with the eternal reality here and not the relative and linear insertion in time of the concept.As John the baptist said in his time: John1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'You talk of pantheism revealed?That is antichrist revealed. You've confirmed my point in post #1.The rebellion is in full swing. Your time to dominate draws near. Rejoice! You will soon evaluate the fruit of your works.My righteousness comes by faith in the righteous one. I do not long for the fruit of my works. I have been spared form what I deserve.I long for the fruit of His finished work.

According to the Bible, that is the case in Christ, yes. And monistic pantheism is it's imposter. That is why it makes so much sense. It is for some Mod, and I thank God that is not the case with you. Pantheism is not monlithic, so it appears you are exempt. Not so with many that I have met, including here.

You're making a grave error in interpretation.All are welcome. It is strange that when I invite people to Christ here at EVC that I am lambasted as preaching inane simple simonism.But then I am labeled a goat for not offering clothing for your nakedness, or living water for your thirst etc...No matter what I do for you, you condemn me...Matthew 11:16 "To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others: 17 "'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.' 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners.'" But wisdom is proved right by her actions."Your duplicity blinds you. Please reconsider. it is never too late to repent. Christ died for you too.

So Judaism and Islam or any other exclusive religion have the same things going for them as Christianity? So, within Christianity, Roman Catholics, Coptic Christians, Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists, Southern Baptists, etc all have an equal claim to the truth because they exclude others and (claim to) be consistent and non-contradictory?Wow, what a great test you've got there. It should be really easy to figure out the truth, now. But does their supposed deception (I'm just going along with you for the time being) make their claim any less true than yours or or anyone else's?You (or the Bible) saying that there is only one path to God does not mean that the claim that there are infinite paths to God is invalid. It just means that your belief in exclusive salvation through Jesus is as valid as any other path or belief (I'm not saying that this is what the Pantheists say, but as it is the point you seem to be making I'm, again, going with you**). No contradiction there.**BTW I don't think Pantheism (of any strictly defined form) means what you think it means from the context of your OP and subsequent discussions in this thread.The belief that "All is God" (literal definition) or that "We're all connected" (loose interpretation of Naturalistic Pantheism) or that "We're all from God and are within and of the one essence of God" (loose interpretation of Monistic Pantheism) do not in any way imply that the adherendts believe that all religions or paths are true. Of course, many people with varying beliefs identify themselves as Pantheists (as is their right) and do indeed say this, but, maybe you should change your OP to say that you have run into some people who claimed that all religions are true paths to God and re-attempt to knock them down from there.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.

I offered the links mainly to get Rob started. The Wiki article on panentheism is spectacularly unrefined so far. It's not the kind of treatment you can find for related ideas. It seemed to assist the purpose of introduction, though. A book that offers an effective exploration of the subject is Breakthrough, the anthology of sermons by Meister Eckart translated and annotated by Matthew Fox.I agree with you that Rob's views are panentheistic. It would improve his truth-in-advertising quotient to learn what the word means and reflect on his own ideas accordingly. He's beating himelf to a pulp in his effort to be a dualist. But he seems to think that is the only alternative he has to the pantheism he finds unconvincing.I notice the panentheistic idea affecting two subjects in Christian theology: (1) the relationhip of good to evil, and (2) the relationship of the creator to creation. I was speaking with Rob about the former. You have introduced, as the articles do, the latter.Good and EvilIn its view of the relationship of good to evil Christianity has always been panentheistic to some degree. Traditionally it does say that evil is not a true opposite of good, but an inferior, smaller, less real thing; it gets trounced in the end. In the last analysis 'good' does not refer to good apples and 'evil' to bad apples; rather, 'good' refers to the whole barrel and 'evil' to some apples in it that have gone bad. The rotten apples get thrown out, but the apple barrel remains.Christians of all stripes and throughout history espouse this general view. This is true even if they talk about good and evil in a dualistic way when the focus of the discussion gets tighter. This is certainly true of Rob.Creator and CreationWhen it comes to the relationship of the Creator to created things I notice Christian views showing a much wider range. It appears one can be a panentheist on the subject of good and evil and be nothing of the sort when it comes to material creation.Traditionally Judaism and Christianity insist on clear distinctions between creator and creation in the effort to avoid 'worshiping created things rather than the creator.' You take care to make this distinciton as well. Early medieval theologians--following Paul's 'flesh and spirit' dichotomies--went so far as to equate 'material' with moral evil and 'spiritual' with moral good.In time this association presented problems. Scholatics had to explain how a good God creates such a repugnant universe. And does not the Bible itself show that spirits can be 'unclean' and God's material creations 'good'?The growing philosophical distinction between substances and morals began to have its effect. By late medieval times Eckhart suggests created things are 'meltings' or 'outflowings' from God in which God, being infinite, loses nothing in the outpouring. All created things thus contain some drop of divinity--even those created beings that deny it. Eckhart's picture is remarkably similar to the image presented by Jewish kabbalist Isaac Luria about the 'shards of God' trapped inside every created thing, and the need for good people to 'repair the universe' by bringing those shards into the light.Panentheism, in this realm of creation, refers to the idea that God is not synonymous with his creation (cf pantheism), but that all material things, as emanations from God, carry something of the divine gold inside the dross.Et tu, Aslan?It's interesting to note that C S Lewis was a panentheist both ways.Lewis held that evil was instrinsically less real than, and inferior to, good (Screwtape Letters, Abolition of Man). Meanwhile, his picture of Nature 'redeemed' and being made 'more herself', and of Reason being a bit the supernatural poking through the surface of the physical world (Miracles), clearly show the influence of Eckhart.___Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.Edited by Archer Opterix, : added subheadings.Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Yes because God does not hide. He is the light. We hide from him because we are sinners. Lies do not come from God. They come from man and his seducing spirit who is the god of this age.There is a god of time, and a god of eternity. The latter knows his time is short.John 8:43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

Sounds like a decent boss. Didn't meet him, perhaps he was reading a different map?

As I said to Mod, if this is not you or your friends thank God. but those are the people I am talking about. And their numbers are increasing.It is difficult to believe that anyone would be so extreme... but we live in extrordinarily cynical and desperate times. Times of the '21st century schidzoid man'. Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

Ahhh...now you are including love and harmony into the mix when your basic premises haven't been validated. What is the "law of love?" What is the "law of harmony?" And pray tell, what does this have to do with "Pantheism revealed?"

Beautiful, Archer. Thank you

You know this, how?I'm not saying any of this is the case, but could it not be that a spot in a realm of eternal happiness might seem appealing to people who toil and hurt with nearly no reprieve. That they might be conned into believing that if they say the magic words that they might be relieved of their hardships? Who can say either way? Can you tell me for sure that they are not just gobbling up the message without truly welcoming Christ into their hearts? That (gobbling up the message) is not itself a "bad" thing. I believe that much of the Christian philosophy is beautiful and may affect people in ways that would make them love their fellow man more and "do unto others" and all that, but are you sure that all these impoverished people that are eating up the words of the Bibles they buy are truly accepting salvation?If you cannot answer this how can you truthfully say that "they are more in touch with reality?" How can you speak for them at all?This probably off-topic, but I would like to know. If I need to propose a new thread for this I will do so. Just let me know.Edited by Jaderis, : fixed a typo