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Author Topic:   King David found guilty on all counts.
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 76 of 174 (377331)
01-16-2007 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Taz
01-12-2007 9:30 PM


model of morality?
a lot of people out there think we should model our morality after the savages of the ancients.

For the record, I am not one of those people. I relly don't know anyone in my church is either.

The only one I want to model myself after, is Jesus. And I am far from it.

There are however many lessons you can learn by studying the OT stories, but only if you interpret them correctly. I am sure if anyone of us would have lived back then, we would be no less the savages, maybe even worse. There would be lessons learned in our life stories. It is all how you apply them to today's times. Even you has found some good for yourself out of that story, by recognizing how bad David was, and it re-enforces your current positions. So you got something from the story.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Taz, posted 01-12-2007 9:30 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Brian, posted 01-16-2007 11:20 AM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 79 by Taz, posted 01-16-2007 1:44 PM riVeRraT has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3131 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 77 of 174 (377338)
01-16-2007 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by riVeRraT
01-16-2007 10:11 AM


Re: model of morality?
but only if you interpret them correctly.

Herein lies an obvious problem, how does anyone know if they have interpreted anything correctly.

There's a danger that the 'correct' interpretation for you is the one that you 'feel' happiest about.

I also have real problems with people who interpret the OT evidence to suit their view of God. A god that murders innocent Egyptian children is a barbarian, whether it is Yahweh, Baal, Chemosh, or any other god.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by riVeRraT, posted 01-16-2007 10:11 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by riVeRraT, posted 01-17-2007 8:49 AM Brian has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3131 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 78 of 174 (377340)
01-16-2007 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by joshua221
01-15-2007 10:42 PM


Re: Let Those Without Sin Cast the First Stone
it's funny and absurd.

What is funny and absurd is your metamorphosis into a mini Kent Hovind. You bleat on about the ills of the world while the hardest thing you have had to do in your life is to try and get two lines of a song to rhyme.

Why don't you ask your God why he sits on his arse all day watching people suffer, then write a song about it on that nice clean paper that mummy and daddy gave you pocket money to buy?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by joshua221, posted 01-15-2007 10:42 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by joshua221, posted 01-16-2007 6:30 PM Brian has responded
 Message 81 by joshua221, posted 01-17-2007 1:34 AM Brian has not yet responded

    
Taz
Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 79 of 174 (377368)
01-16-2007 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by riVeRraT
01-16-2007 10:11 AM


Re: model of morality?
Here you are.

David committed a crime. To punish David, god made david's son rebel and caused twenty some thousand people to die. God also made david's son rape david's wives. Is this assessment correct?


AKA G.A.S.B.Y.

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by riVeRraT, posted 01-16-2007 10:11 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by riVeRraT, posted 01-17-2007 9:10 AM Taz has responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 80 of 174 (377438)
01-16-2007 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Brian
01-16-2007 11:24 AM


Re: Let Those Without Sin Cast the First Stone
Sorry for pointing out your depressing lines of thought at evc.

1. You are probably better off financially than me. (Which doesn't matter to me as I have no value in such matters but you seem to hold much significance in it as you have "called me out" for being rich or something stupid like that.)
2. You probably grew up with 2 caring parents. (Which I write to inform you of my situation which is not one like you described so angrily.)
3. You probably have never wanted to accomplish anything, born and have lived without anything to offer, without any ideas, and without any originality. You probably work at a job just to work at a job.
4. I called out the ridiculousness of you and everyone else's posts and thoughts so far and all you have to give are some weird insults which unfortunately it seems I have returned to you above. Man this is lame, this isn't what this is supposed to be about.

This whole circumstance is so strange, I had given up on EvC and only returned to set something right in one small and insignificant argument. An argument which has been repeated over and over again with different premises to recieve the multitudes of simple statement and counter-statement responses written by people with robotic like qualities which is seen through their posts day by day. I had realized that there is no thought here through these arguments. And then to top it all off I see these two absurd people talking like they are martyrs for truth and true thought when in actuality they are just the same as the ones who they argue against!

It's absurd that I even wrote this up for you as you don't deserve this silly negativity. You are not unlike the majority of human beings but only in that you assume a status of being right and true in your ideas and responses to which I had objection. I am unsure as to whether it is better to correct you than to simply not reply. It is not just to downplay your character and I had no intention in doing so.

I just want to prove that human morality cannot change. (By the Way jar, the power went out in my house when I was trying to get my argument across last night.)

And now I have completely lost sight of my original argument anyway, and it doesn't matter because it seems that by my last post I had unfortunately resorted to using historical knowledge to prove it, which is far too simple and weak in forming a strong objectively true argument.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Brian, posted 01-16-2007 11:24 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Brian, posted 01-17-2007 10:02 AM joshua221 has responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 81 of 174 (377484)
01-17-2007 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Brian
01-16-2007 11:24 AM


Re: Let Those Without Sin Cast the First Stone
Why does GOD create people who are unable to understand truth?

Very few are born with that ability, and the rest fulfill meaningless and stupid tasks within society. God created this joke where noone has even the capability to be intelligent save a few desperate souls such as I. As I left the college I met a man painting the walls of the college. I said to him, "Late Night Huh?" And he replied, "Nope, this is usual, it's the second shift." And then he said something I won't ever forget for the rest of my life... "It really sucks but somebody has to do it."

And then I realized the disgusting nature of this world and everything that is in it. It's a world where there resides almost no individuals who can call themselves rational beings, and is a place where misery is the only consistent emotion to which we can subscribe. But it's deeper than that. The conclusion isn't that the world sucks, it's that a GOD created this world that sucks, and he knew that there would only be a few who could even begin to understand anything about anything. The rest are like babies who were just born, born with ignorance and innocence, but die with ignorance and misery.

How could GOD create such a place; I don't understand it. Fuck Original Sin.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Brian, posted 01-16-2007 11:24 AM Brian has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by riVeRraT, posted 01-17-2007 9:14 AM joshua221 has not yet responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 82 of 174 (377485)
01-17-2007 1:38 AM


And how could I be angry with those who GOD created to die a miserable and ignorant death? I should only feel the deepest sorrow for each of you, for the millions and millions. I am not on high, I am saddened by this depressing reality. I can understand, but I only know one or possibly two others who can as well. All of the people I have loved and respected have not been as I describe. It isn't righteous, and who is to blame but GOD.
Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by AdminPhat, posted 01-17-2007 2:02 AM joshua221 has not yet responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1911
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 83 of 174 (377492)
01-17-2007 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by joshua221
01-17-2007 1:38 AM


Topic Reminder
I was asleep at the switch when you came in chat. You can come talk if you have a minute,Charlie.

Might I remind everyone of the original topic---we seem to have gotten sidetracked.

Jar writes:

King David was found guilty of adultery, murder and coveting another man's wife despite his pleas of innocence.

In his defense David claimed:

"I was at my palace when he was killed," said David - being portrayed by Daniel Kirsch, a biblical scholar - when asked by the prosecuting attorney if he murdered the husband of a woman with whom he had had an affair. "I did not lay a glove on him, and if I had, it would not fit."

So was Bathsheba just a Good Jewish Mother looking out for the interests of her son?

Edited by Phat, : oops


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by joshua221, posted 01-17-2007 1:38 AM joshua221 has not yet responded

    
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 84 of 174 (377510)
01-17-2007 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Brian
01-16-2007 11:20 AM


Re: model of morality?
Herein lies an obvious problem, how does anyone know if they have interpreted anything correctly.

That's histerical Brian. Why would you even care since the bible is nothing more than a fable, and David never even existed.

I also have real problems with people who interpret the OT evidence to suit their view of God. A god that murders innocent Egyptian children is a barbarian, whether it is Yahweh, Baal, Chemosh, or any other god.

Another totally BS comment, since you don't believe in God, then God did not do those things now, did He?

I am sick and tired of people like you blaming God for those things, it is beyond stupid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Brian, posted 01-16-2007 11:20 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Brian, posted 01-17-2007 9:46 AM riVeRraT has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 85 of 174 (377513)
01-17-2007 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Taz
01-16-2007 1:44 PM


Re: model of morality?
I have been avoiding this arguement with you, as you are over simplfying it, and also mis-representing how the story goes.

David commited more than a crime. David was able to hear the voice of God, and was in direct relations with God. David betrayed God, the creator of the universe, and pissed God off. We are God's creation, and God can choose to do with us what He pleases. Again, this whole vision of what good and bad is, is not clearly definable, since we don't understand God's ways completely.

If you notice, after Jesus came, God no longer did things like this to us, we only do it to ourselves.

In both cases, God clearly gives us levels of responsibility, and always gives us free will, whether we recognize that or not. To David, He gave a lot, so when David screwd up, then David messed it up for many people, not just himself, because David was made responsible for those people, he was the king.

Are you denying that people in authority, cannot be responsible for killing many, by their actions?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Taz, posted 01-16-2007 1:44 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 01-17-2007 12:33 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 90 by Taz, posted 01-17-2007 1:02 PM riVeRraT has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 86 of 174 (377515)
01-17-2007 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by joshua221
01-17-2007 1:34 AM


Re: Let Those Without Sin Cast the First Stone
And then I realized the disgusting nature of this world and everything that is in it. It's a world where there resides almost no individuals who can call themselves rational beings, and is a place where misery is the only consistent emotion to which we can subscribe. But it's deeper than that. The conclusion isn't that the world sucks, it's that a GOD created this world that sucks, and he knew that there would only be a few who could even begin to understand anything about anything. The rest are like babies who were just born, born with ignorance and innocence, but die with ignorance and misery.

How could GOD create such a place; I don't understand it. Fuck Original Sin.

Hey, I guess your right, all this happened by chance then. The world sucks all on its own. How do you even know what "sucks" is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by joshua221, posted 01-17-2007 1:34 AM joshua221 has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3131 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 87 of 174 (377518)
01-17-2007 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by riVeRraT
01-17-2007 8:49 AM


Re: model of morality?
That's histerical Brian. Why would you even care since the bible is nothing more than a fable, and David never even existed.

I suppose it is better than answering the question, but you are getting really good at dodging issues.

I care because I share a world with fruitloops who do believe in God. I care because some of these fruitloops' actions affect my life. One fruitloop in particular has caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq, and he is about to do the same in Iran.

I care because I hear asshole fundies on street corners condemning homosexuals, single parents, and people who live together without being married.

I care because moronic theists are abusing their kids by suffocating them with their fairytales, corrupting their minds befire thay are able to think for themselves. Need I go on?

Another totally BS comment, since you don't believe in God, then God did not do those things now, did He?

Jesus.

I am not saying God did anything, I am making a statement that a God who murders innocent children is a barbarian. You are the one that has to deal with whether He is real or not. I know there isnt a God, I know that there was never any Israelites in Egypt during the 2nd millenium BCE.

However, many morons believe that there is a God and that He sent the angel of death at the first passover to slaughter all the innocent first born Egyptian children.

Now, if you believe in that God then you are sick in the head.

So, I am not saying that God did anything, I am saying if you think God exists then you have to deal with the shit that you BELIEVE He has done.

I am sick and tired of people like you blaming God for those things, it is beyond stupid.

Well, it tells us in your Holy Book that He did it, or didn't I interpret it correctly?

But Taz is correct, you will find some embarrassing excuse to justify God slaughtering innocent children. It keeps your wee fantasy intact.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by riVeRraT, posted 01-17-2007 8:49 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by riVeRraT, posted 01-18-2007 9:02 AM Brian has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3131 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 88 of 174 (377519)
01-17-2007 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by joshua221
01-16-2007 6:30 PM


Re: Let Those Without Sin Cast the First Stone
1. You are probably better off financially than me. (Which doesn't matter to me as I have no value in such matters but you seem to hold much significance in it as you have "called me out" for being rich or something stupid like that.)

I am fairly confident that you are rich in relation to the poor suffering people that you bleat on about all the time. So rather than bleat on about it I think that most of us here are saying ‘get of your arse and do something about it rather than moaning.’

2. You probably grew up with 2 caring parents.

Only until I was 14.

3. You probably have never wanted to accomplish anything,

Well let me see.

I always wanted to be a teacher, so I studied and earned an honours degree in religious studies/History, and a Diploma in Education, then achieved a Masters Degree in Theology, currently working on a Master of Letters in Archaeological Studies (due to finish September 2008), so I think I have achieved quite a bit so far.

born and have lived without anything to offer, without any ideas, and without any originality.

Well I get emails from all over the world from ex-students telling me how they are doing and how much they enjoyed my classes, so I like to think I have helped a few people along the way.

You probably work at a job just to work at a job.

Teaching really isn’t one of those jobs that you just work at. If your heart isn’t in it then you would soon get sick of it.

4. I called out the ridiculousness of you and everyone else's posts and thoughts so far and all you have to give are some weird insults which unfortunately it seems I have returned to you above.

There is nothing wrong with you disagreeing with me or anyone else, but your tone and reasons for disagreeing isn’t going to win you any friends.

This whole circumstance is so strange, I had given up on EvC and only returned to set something right in one small and insignificant argument. An argument which has been repeated over and over again with different premises to recieve the multitudes of simple statement and counter-statement responses written by people with robotic like qualities which is seen through their posts day by day.

You seem blissfully unaware that your responses are completely robotic, this is the strange thing.

I had realized that there is no thought here through these arguments. And then to top it all off I see these two absurd people talking like they are martyrs for truth and true thought when in actuality they are just the same as the ones who they argue against!

So what is absurd about it? Is it absurd because YOU say it is?

You are not unlike the majority of human beings but only in that you assume a status of being right and true in your ideas and responses to which I had objection.

Everybody believes that they are right and true, difference is, I usually am. ;)

I am unsure as to whether it is better to correct you than to simply not reply.

Well, if I post something that is incorrect then I am happy to be corrected. I don’t have this big ego that means I have to be right. I don’t mind being wrong, I do mind being told I am wrong without any reason. If I am wrong about something then how can I know it is wrong if no one tells me?

I just want to prove that human morality cannot change.

Well you have been proven wrong there mate.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by joshua221, posted 01-16-2007 6:30 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Taz, posted 01-17-2007 1:10 PM Brian has not yet responded
 Message 93 by joshua221, posted 01-17-2007 3:44 PM Brian has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16677
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 89 of 174 (377537)
01-17-2007 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by riVeRraT
01-17-2007 9:10 AM


Re: model of morality?
iiVeRraT writes:

... this whole vision of what good and bad is, is not clearly definable....

Sure it is. Jesus defined it as "love God and love thy neighbour as thyself". And He said that that is the basis of the whole Old Testament law.

Uriah was clearly David's neighbour - he could see right into Uriah's house - so you can't define away the obvious bad that he did.

... since we don't understand God's ways completely.

But we do understand "God's ways" as they pertain to us. That's what the law is all about. The application of the law is not always clear, but you couldn't find a worse case than David's to suggest that "we don't understand".

Are you denying that people in authority, cannot be responsible for killing many, by their actions?

The question here is: Who is responsible for the people in authority?

If a leader is elected by the people and he kills (with the tacit blessing of the electorate), aren't the people responsible for their actions?

Why is God less responsible for the actions of those He "elects"?

Edited by Ringo, : Malfunctioning "Shift" key.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by riVeRraT, posted 01-17-2007 9:10 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by riVeRraT, posted 01-18-2007 9:08 AM ringo has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 90 of 174 (377543)
01-17-2007 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by riVeRraT
01-17-2007 9:10 AM


Re: model of morality?
riverrat writes:

mis-representing how the story goes.


I honestly don't see how I misrepresented it. God chose David as king. David screwed up. God punished a lot of people for it.

David commited more than a crime. David was able to hear the voice of God, and was in direct relations with God. David betrayed God, the creator of the universe, and pissed God off.

So, if I piss my father off, I guess he has the right to beat my brother, his children, his wife, my wife, and my cousins?

We are God's creation, and God can choose to do with us what He pleases.

For now, I am not arguing with you on this point at all, if you've noticed. All I have been doing is asking a simple question, and all you have been doing is being overly defensive.

The question is quite simple. Did god punish a lot of people for david's crime, or betrayal, whatever you want to call it?

This isn't an issue of god punished who and who. This is an issue of where the punishmentment, or mishaps, came from. You and phat have been claiming all along that all the miseries and all the deaths were purely man's doing and that god was suppose to be all good and all of that. Now, you've changed your story and said god could do to people whatever she wanted.

So, which is it? Did god punish these people for david's doing or did all that crap just happen out of people's own doing?

riverrat writes:

If you notice, after Jesus came, God no longer did things like this to us, we only do it to ourselves.


That's not you and others have been saying. You and others have been saying all along that all the mishaps both old and new were of man's doing. Now, it seems, you have changed your story.

Again, I asked a simple question. I didn't misrepresent it at all. But if you wish, I will add another sentence to it.

David committed a crime and betrayed god. God could do whatever the hell she wishes. God punished a people by causing deaths of 20 some thousand people and made david's son rape david's wives. Is this accurate?

Are you denying that people in authority, cannot be responsible for killing many, by their actions?

This is the crux of the matter, actually. David didn't kill these people. I'm not a christian, so that's why I'm asking you. The bible seems to say that god killed these people. Did god kill these people?

***************************************************************

On a side note, you said earlier that you are not one of the people that advocate we should follow the morality of the ancients.

If I were to betray my father and he has the right to beat, or kill, my children, my brother, my brother's wife, my brother's kids, my wife, my cousins, and everyone else related to me, that is morality of savages. It is the idea that the leader of the house/country could do whatever the hell he pleases. It is savage moral.

I'm sorry, riverrat, but you are showing more and more to me that perhaps you are better off living in ancient times because you agree so much with what they did back then.


AKA G.A.S.B.Y.

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by riVeRraT, posted 01-17-2007 9:10 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by riVeRraT, posted 01-18-2007 9:20 AM Taz has responded

  
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