Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Dialogue Between Satan and God in the Book of Job
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 136 of 146 (375833)
01-10-2007 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Archer Opteryx
01-02-2007 3:43 PM


I thought this topic was closed down.
You didn't evade. You misunderstood.
And Toodles is not my name. You misunderstood that, too.
No I didn't either. I called you Toodles.
What passage in Daniel are you talking about?
Please provide a reference or a quote.
Now if I recall correctly, I referenced Daniel as an Old Testament book having something to say about resurrection and eternal life. If I recall I was probably pointing out that these were not uniquely Pauline opinions but were beliefs of the Jews before the gospel.
"And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach, to eternal contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
Severe persecutions in that period fueled the first widespread belief in an afterlife among Jews.
So what?
If the prophet spoke of the matter it doesn't make any difference what circumstances "fueled" the belief and hope. Daniel was a prophet of God. And Daniel spoke it from the vision he received.
The Jews have pretty much always been under persecution anyway.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-02-2007 3:43 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-10-2007 2:05 PM jaywill has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 137 of 146 (375891)
01-10-2007 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by jaywill
01-10-2007 8:42 AM


Antiochus Epiphanes
jaywill:
Now if I recall correctly, I referenced Daniel as an Old Testament book having something to say about resurrection and eternal life. If I recall I was probably pointing out that these were not uniquely Pauline opinions but were beliefs of the Jews before the gospel.
"And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach, to eternal contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
Thank you for supplying the reference. I thought that might be what you had in mind.
I did say that 'before the gospel' belief in an afterlife did develop. But this happened much later than the time most of the Hebrew scriptures were penned. It is anachronistic to ascribe later beliefs to an earlier document like Job. Especially when the passage in question is obscure and admits multiple interpretations.
Of the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes I wrote:
quote:
Severe persecutions in that period fueled the first widespread belief in an afterlife among Jews.
jaywill:
So what?
So plenty. The resurrection you mention here is not the one you're looking for.
Everything described in Daniel chapter 12 is said to happen in the time period given at the beginning of chapter 11. That time period is the Greek empire. The resurrection you mention is supposed to have happened before the Romans ever arrived.
The narratives through the end of chapter 11 follow in close detail the career of Antiochus Epiphanes. Antiochus, as I mentioned, is the tyrannical ruler whose persecutions proved so traumatic that they forever changed Jewish society. This close description of his career in chapter 11 is in fact what enables scholars to date this section of Daniel so precisely.
You are quick to declare information about Antiochus irrelevant and to be flippant about the horrific persecutions he inflicted on Jews. Such nonchalance is curious in one who professes to hold such interest in the Bible and the history of the Jewish people.
But the facts remain. Anyone who is serious about respecting and understanding the text of Daniel will learn something about the period. Anyone who is not respectful of a text enough to do some basic research cannot be taken seriously as its interpreter.
Thanks again for providing the citation. We have been off topic with this. The original text under discussion is Job.
The original text of Job, as I said, is obscure. It is going very far with the material at hand to ascribe belief in an afterlife to the protagonist of Job. Any scholarly source on the passage you mention will say as much, regardles of the authors' personal religious beliefs.
Your interpretation of the passage has been infuenced by centuries of English translations of Job, including the one by King James's translators in 1611. The translators have chosen to be clear, according to their own beliefs, in a place where the text is obscure.
__
Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jaywill, posted 01-10-2007 8:42 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by jaywill, posted 01-10-2007 2:31 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 139 by jaywill, posted 01-10-2007 2:50 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 140 by jaywill, posted 01-10-2007 3:19 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 138 of 146 (375896)
01-10-2007 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Archer Opteryx
01-10-2007 2:05 PM


Re: Antiochus Epiphanes
I did say that 'before the gospel' belief in an afterlife did develop. But this happened much later than the time most of the Hebrew scriptures were penned. It is anachronistic to ascribe later beliefs to an earlier document like Job. Especially when the passage in question is obscure and admits multiple interpretations.
Of the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes I wrote:
You can "question" and call everything "obscure" and raise multiple issues from any passage on a variety of grounds real or imagined.
If you want an earlier passage on resurrection I could go all the way back to Genesis. But you might raise issues of questions of various kinds with that also.
I don't think the issues you are trying to raise in connection with the book of Daniel or the history of the Jews at that point has any bearing on the matter of the prophecy in chapter 12:1-4.
The resurrection you mention here is not the one you're looking for.
Were we talking about the resurrection I was looking for? Anyway, it is a resurrection that I would be looking for.
Everything described in Daniel chapter 12 is said to happen in the time period given at the beginning of chapter 11. That time period is the Greek empire. The resurrection you mention is supposed to have happened before the Romans ever arrived.
I don't agree with that.
Let's look at the passage again and add the following verse:
"And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach, to eternal contempt.
And those who have insight will shine like the shining of the heavenly expanse, and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars, forever and ever.
But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end; many will go here and there, and knowledge will be encreased." (Dan. 12:2-4)
I take "the time of the end" to be something more than the time of the Greek empire. There was no mass resurrection at that time.
Furthermore that "knowlege will be encreased" probably refers to the exponential growth of technological and scientific knowledge in the centries far beyond the times of the Greek Empire.
Daniel and Revelation both speak of last things before the establishment of Christ millennial kingdom and the eternal age to follow 1,000 years after that.
I think your textural critics of the book of Daniel have furnished you with reasons that cause you to miss the simplicity of the eschatological nature of the passage.
I will cut the post here. However, Daniel may have refered to some things which have aready occured or have partially already occured. For example it is true that Antiochus Epiphanes was a very close type of the coming Antichrist elsewhere spoken of. But to leap from this to saying that 12:1-4 is history is wrong.
I think you over spread your concept too far in a blanket generalization. But having not studied Daniel recently, I am aware that some matters prophesied by him in his book already have become history.
Clearly, the great resurrection and vindication of the saints of God is still to come.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-10-2007 2:05 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 139 of 146 (375911)
01-10-2007 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Archer Opteryx
01-10-2007 2:05 PM


Re: Antiochus Epiphanes
You are quick to declare information about Antiochus irrelevant and to be flippant about the horrific persecutions he inflicted on Jews. Such nonchalance is curious in one who professes to hold such interest in the Bible and the history of the Jewish people.
It was not intended to sound flippant.
Many who "profess to hold such interest in the Bible and the history of the Jewish people" also likewise sometimes have curious attitudes to me. Your stretch to make the great resurrection to eternal life refer to something in Greek history is a "curious" way of disbelieving a strightfoward promise of God about "the time of the end."
But the facts remain. Anyone who is serious about respecting and understanding the text of Daniel will learn something about the period. Anyone who is not respectful of a text enough to do some basic research cannot be taken seriously as its interpreter.
Daniel next to Genesis is probably the book most attacked by higher criticism. Skeptics cannot believe that Daniel could have written it. You seemed to have been influenced by some of this textural citicism.
In the church in Corinth in Paul had to deal with some ancient Christians who were teaching that the resurrection had already occured. He adjusted their heresy and taught the church properly in First Corinthians 15.
The original text of Job, as I said, is obscure. It is going very far with the material at hand to ascribe belief in an afterlife to the protagonist of Job. Any scholarly source on the passage you mention will say as much, regardles of the authors' personal religious beliefs.
It seems very obvious to me that Job spoke of a time when he believed he would see his divine Redeemer though his body wasted away.
We may argue over who he thought he would see. Perhaps you say that should not be Jesus Christ. I won't argue with that because you just don't have the faith to see it that way.
But there is no argument over the fact that Job believed that this One who he would see would be God Himself.
If you're arguing that there is no exhaustive teaching set forth in Job about the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of Christ in you have a case. But anyway, in the progressive unfolding of the divine revelation of the 66 books of the Bible we do have this glimpse into Job seeing his God in the end even though his physical body be decayed.
Your interpretation of the passage has been infuenced by centuries of English translations of Job, including the one by King James's translators in 1611. The translators have chosen to be clear, according to their own beliefs, in a place where the text is obscure.
Please put forth the translation of the passage into English which you say is a better translation.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-10-2007 2:05 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 140 of 146 (375924)
01-10-2007 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Archer Opteryx
01-10-2007 2:05 PM


Re: Antiochus Epiphanes
But the facts remain. Anyone who is serious about respecting and understanding the text of Daniel will learn something about the period. Anyone who is not respectful of a text enough to do some basic research cannot be taken seriously as its interpreter.
Does that mean that everybody interested in the book of Daniel will also believe with you that the prophecy of 12:1-4 already took place during the time of the Greek Empire?
Does it mean that only those who are Preterists are respectful of the text?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-10-2007 2:05 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-11-2007 12:16 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 141 of 146 (375930)
01-10-2007 3:36 PM


This is what I refered to in Job:
"Oh that my words were now written! Oh that they were inscribed in a book. That with an iron pen and with lead they were engraved in rock forever! But I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will stand upon the earth; And after this body of mine is destroyed outside my flesh I will look on God, Whom I, even I, will look on for myself, And my eyes will see; I and no other. My inward parts that long for God are consumed within me." (Job 19:24-27)
This was my comment:
I take this as his prophecy that at the end of history the Redeemer Christ, who is God incarnate, will be Job's comfort and advocate in his trial.
If some say that could not be a reference to Jesus Christ, I would not insist that they have to have the faith to see that.
Taken in the whole context of the Bible though, how can we who do have faith resist not seeing Christ the resurrected Redeemer and one before Whom all men and women must stand, as being the One that Job prophetically envisioned?
The passage is reflects a strong hope in Job for a just Referee or righteous advocate who is divine. He calls this one his redeemer.
It is not far out or far off to believe that this is a yearning prophetic utterance about Christ the Redeeming God-man who is the advocate for the saved of Adam's race.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 01-10-2007 3:59 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 142 of 146 (375944)
01-10-2007 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by jaywill
01-10-2007 3:36 PM


jaywill writes:
... how can we who do have faith resist not seeing Christ the resurrected Redeemer...?
You have an extra "not" in there, I think.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by jaywill, posted 01-10-2007 3:36 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 143 of 146 (376203)
01-11-2007 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by jaywill
01-10-2007 3:19 PM


Re: Antiochus Epiphanes
jaywill:
Does that mean that everybody interested in the book of Daniel will also believe with you that the prophecy of 12:1-4 already took place during the time of the Greek Empire?
Does it mean that only those who are Preterists are respectful of the text?
Does giving knowledge a partisan-sounding label absolve a would-be interpreter from needing any?
My statement stands: Anyone who is serious about respecting and understanding an ancient text will learn something about the period. Anyone who is not respectful enough to do basic research cannot be taken seriously as its interpreter.
__

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jaywill, posted 01-10-2007 3:19 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by jaywill, posted 01-11-2007 12:39 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 144 of 146 (376210)
01-11-2007 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Archer Opteryx
01-11-2007 12:16 PM


Re: Antiochus Epiphanes
Does giving knowledge a partisan-sounding label absolve a would-be interpreter from needing any?
Let's try this:
Does giving knowledge a academic sounding label absolve a would be interpreter from needing more than head knowledge?
My statement stands: Anyone who is serious about respecting and understanding an ancient text will learn something about the period. Anyone who is not respectful enough to do basic research cannot be taken seriously as its interpreter.
Anyone who says Daniel 12:1-4 is past history is full of baloney.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-11-2007 12:16 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-12-2007 11:51 AM jaywill has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 145 of 146 (376500)
01-12-2007 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by jaywill
01-11-2007 12:39 PM


You'll have to take it up with Daniel 11
Anyone who says Daniel 12:1-4 is past history is full of baloney.
Are you making this pronouncement ex cathedra or should we wait for the official bull?

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jaywill, posted 01-11-2007 12:39 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by jaywill, posted 01-17-2007 6:02 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 146 of 146 (377624)
01-17-2007 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Archer Opteryx
01-12-2007 11:51 AM


Re: You'll have to take it up with Daniel 11
Are you making this pronouncement ex cathedra or should we wait for the official bull?
Okay, if you insist.
Anyone who teaches that the prophecy of Daniel 12:1-4 has already taken place is officially full of bull.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-12-2007 11:51 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024