Another book request

Another book question for all the evilutionists on the board.On another board, I've developed a (highly antagonistic) kind of relationship with a strident creationist. He's asked me for a "book swap," that is, he'll read any book of my choosing if I will read one of his. So far he has not found one that I have not already read...Anyway, which ONE book would you give a YEC (or OEC) to read in hopes that it would result in a scientific epiphany? My criteria were that the book couldn't read like a textbook, be too complicated for a non-scientist, or be longer than 400 pages or so. Pretty pictures are a plus, as well.I settled on Zimmer's book, Evolution: The Triumph of an Idea, but I'm curious what others think.Edited by ekman, : Enabled my all-too-appropriate signature...

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"A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day."
- Calvin

oopsEdited by Phat, : No reason given.

it violates two of your standards (being a 700 page textbook), but i generally recommend vertebrate paleontology and evolution by robert l. carroll.although i would also find it highly amusing to trade your creationist a book on the bible.

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I think a textbook like that stands zero chance of being read by my creationist, unfortunately, which has something to do with where my criteria came from. Choosing a book for an anti-intellectual is a tough task.I myself have a thing for textbooks, though, so I've just added it to my Amazon wishlist...

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"A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day."
- Calvin

this one's got lots of good pictures of skeletal reconstructions. i've actuall recommended it to creationists here, saying "don't read it; just look at the pics." indeed. i'll see if i can find something cool...

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About the difference between science and pseudo-science:Carl Sagan's a Demon Haunted Worldor Feynman's The Meaning of It All might inspire those not acquainted with the actual methodologies and findings of science to probe more deeply.but specifically about evolution, anything by Dawkins, Gould, or Mayr.Dawkin's atheism may be too intertwined with his views on evolution, but A River Out of Eden might not be too bad from what I remember (it was written as part of a series to popularize science).Gould's Bully for Brontosaurus is very entertaining and informative.And Mayr's [i]What Evolution Is[i] is a great bare bones account of evolution, though it may be too close to a text book style (a text book for highschool level though).

Sagan and Feynman are both high on my list, I've lent out my copy of Demon Haunted World probably a dozen times.Mayr's book is another good choice.Has anyone read this book:Amazon.comScience as a Way of Knowing: The Foundations of Modern Biology, by John Moore

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"A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day."
- Calvin

Zimmer's book is pretty good as a popular introduction. It's probably the one I would have chosen. Mayr's What Evolution Is has more depth but it's harder going. If you need something lighter and even more general The Science of Discworld isn't bad, although it covers a lot of ground.It'll be interestign to see if he actually manages to read the book. On a mailing list one fo the fundamentalists was challenged to read and review Steven Jones' Almost Like a Whale (aka Darwin's Ghost). IIRC he didn't make it past the introduction.

I can see that people seem to be suggesting, perhaps following your lead, that the kind of book should be one which presents “evolution.” If this creationist is worth the while communicating with, he or she may either have all of the ideas necessary to swap book ideas including as much “science” as in both your horizons or else this person may simply not care to think or know more. The ground of debate really is in terms of sociological facts rather than specific data except for the dilettantes.That notwithstanding I would suggest

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Living with Darwin by Kitcher
as I suspect it will remain current and have some EvC currency for some foreseeable future. It’s argument establishes what many EvC-ers think, namely that “it is not science” or the difference of creation science and scientific creationism (as I have discussed it here) is more than “effectively” dead, but Kitcher goes BETWEEN both S.Gould and E.Wilson humanistically, attempting through a disinternment of sorts to rule spiritual where much of the e/c discussion has trod in the best of all possible academic worlds.Kitcher attempts his position by assuming that in a major EVC position that ID is not science that this puts YECism to bed. I am still up but my opinion cuts differently in his text than this.One reader of the book noted

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Kitcher’s writing is accessible to anyone, and unless you are really up on the details of both intelligent design and evolutionary theory you’ll learn a lot without feeling that you are putting out much effort. I’m disappointed to think that books like Dawkins’ and Harris’s latest books are bestsellers, and Kitcher’s equally accessible but less inflammatory book might not be.
Or perhaps it is just as inflammatory. The final chapter is a nuanced and rather wonderful account of why providentialist religion must be false, but why this fact should not inspire in atheists any kind of triumphalism or disrespect for religion. It is, in other words, opposed both to fundamentalist Christianity, and to the militantly secularist atheism propounded by Dawkins, Harris, Dennett and the like. Perhaps the reason I loved the book is that Kitcher expresses in this last chapter something like the attitude I have come to have myself toward

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Out of the Crooked Timber of Humanity .

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I can see that people seem to be suggesting, perhaps following your lead, that the kind of book should be one which presents “evolution.”

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Actually I was mostly just curious what other books people would select if they could only pick one to give to a creationist with the assumption that it would be read attentively. I could have phrased my question better, apologies for the ambiguity.I was not aware of "Living with Darwin," I'll check it out. Thanks!

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"A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day."
- Calvin

There is no book you can recommend that is considered "good" in this case. Why?(1) It often requires years of study to understand the evidence for the theory of evolution. And to do these years of study, you need years of experience in learning. Most creationists lack the learning experience to even understand simple concepts in science. I was a college TA for several years and I came across enough creationists to know the lack of science mindedness required to understand things like evidence for evolution.This is why the books that accurately describe what's going on with evolution are too heavy for the typical creationist.(2) There are books out there written for dummies. They are meant for the average person to be able to read and digest. I have read some of these books and my opinion is they are missing too much stuff. In fact, I approached one of these books with a creationist mindset and I was able to say to myself "wait a minute..." every other page. In other words, these books are open for nitpicks and misrepresentations.(3) Creationists already have the mindset that scientists are lying. Even if they understand certain evidence presented, it is doubtful that they will believe such evidence exist.Just how many times have the tree rings indicating that there are trees older than 6,000 years out there been presented on these boards?The point is recommending books for people to read might succeed in reaching 1 out of a million creationists out there. In fact, recommending books to creationists might do more harm than good. They can skim through the book and declare themselves experts in the field of evolution. How many times have we seen the typical high school student coming to this place trying to impress everyone with the one word he memorized from his biology text book?

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AKA G.A.S.B.Y.George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

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Science as a Way of Knowing: The Foundations of Modern Biology, by John Moore

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Never read it, but it looks interesting. If you like the subject, you might be interested in This is Biology by Mayr.The fact that Mayr was around for so long and contributed to so much of biological thought assures that every line he makes has substance and is well thought out.It reminds me of my grandfather telling me the story of how my family came to be where we are now.

Perhaps I framed my question poorly.

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I was a college TA for several years and I came across enough creationists to know the lack of science mindedness required to understand things like evidence for evolution.

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I taught college bio at a community college in a small town in central NC, I've run across a few creationists myself. Most were shocked that their own churches' official positions accepted evolution. And I don't really disagree with any of your points, but I was really just looking for folks to share which book(s) they liked best. I'm under no illusions about changing anyone's mind, the question was almost entirely academic. I may have very few posts here at EvC, but I am not new to this topic.

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If you like the subject, you might be interested in This is Biology by Mayr.

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I've read several of Mayr's books, but not This is Biology. Thanks for the suggestion.Edited by ekman, : No reason given.

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"A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day."
- Calvin

For a YEC I would go with Brent Dalrymple's book on the age of the earthDalrymple GB. The Age of the Earth. Stanford, Stanford University Press, 1991.see www.ncseweb.org/.../vol20/RadiometericDatingDoesWork...
Radiometeric Dating Does Work!
by G. Brent DalrympleThe earth is old. This invalidates the YEC concept.Enjoy.

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