Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Discrimination against homosexuals carried into the 21st century
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 16 of 313 (377949)
01-19-2007 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Rob
01-19-2007 1:26 AM


Re: Descrimination...
The term sex finds it's context in the concept of reproduction. Some creatures are asexual. Some are heterosexual. And of course their are others...
Human beings are heterosexual. I thought you knew that.
No, the appropriate antonym to asexual in a biological context is sexual. I thought you knew that (or rather, you should know that unless you reject all of biology as false)
Of course, asexuality as an orientation is another topic for another time and place.
Btw, what are the "others..."?
Of course, we all know that reproduction between two members of the same biological sex is not possible (that is, right now).
That does not preclude a loving, sexual relationship between two people of the same sex.
Anyhow, this is off topic (mostly). If you wish to contribute something besides Bible quotes and innacurate biological terms to the debate, I would love to hear what you have to say on the topic.
{A continuing off-topic ABE:
Isn't it amazing also, that God called man and woman... man (or in the Hebrew, 'Adam'). It was only after sin entered the picture that the male decided to give his wife a diferent name from his own and rule over her.
Yes, they were "equal" before sin, so what gave "Adam" the right to "give his wife a different name" and "rule over her?" If they were equal, then "Eve" should still have as much rule over "Adam" as he does over her because they both "sinned" and aren't all sins equally egregious under the eyes of God?
And where in the hell does it say in Genesis that Adam named Eve after the incident with the fruit? It doesn't. The word for "woman" was used in Genesis before said incident.
This little aside is just a more wordy elaboration on "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve." How clever.}
Edited by Jaderis, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 1:26 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 10:08 AM Jaderis has not replied
 Message 29 by arachnophilia, posted 01-19-2007 11:11 AM Jaderis has not replied

Vacate
Member (Idle past 4600 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 17 of 313 (377957)
01-19-2007 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Rob
01-19-2007 1:26 AM


Re: Descrimination...
Rob writes:
The term sex finds it's context in the concept of reproduction. Some creatures are asexual. Some are heterosexual. And of course their are others...
So you really think that the "others" you mention are having relations with members of the same sex for the purpose of reproduction?
Rob writes:
It is amazing how lacking in basic and obvious science our young people are today
I agree, its also amazing how lacking some people are about the realities of sex for purposes other than making babies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 1:26 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 9:20 AM Vacate has replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 18 of 313 (377959)
01-19-2007 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Rob
01-19-2007 12:25 AM


Re: Descrimination...
From Rob's quote:
I said this to her: “We are against racial discrimination because one’s ethnicity is sacred. You cannot violate the sacredness of one’s race. For the same reason we are against the altering of God’s pattern and purpose for sexuality. Sex is sacred in the eyes of God and ought not to be violated.
I know the person you quoted asked the woman why race was sacred and not sexuality, but why do you, Rob, think that this is so?
Is it explicitly stated in the Bible that black people and white people and cafe con leche people are all equally sacred? Or are you just a product of your culture?
It also says, and I don't deny it, in the Bible that lying down with a man as with a woman is an abomination and that Jesus or God (or someone, Paul, maybe...speaking of asexuality ) disapproved of men and women going "against their natures," and I won't go into interpretation here (and, yes, there are alternate interpretations especially when one takes into acount historical context).
However, Jesus says in Matthew 19:
quote:
1And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;
2And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.
3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
There is much debate about the meaning of "eunuchs" and diferent Bibles have different wordings (I used the KJV), but the phrasing is interesting, isn't it. Some are made so "from their mother's wombs" and "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."
Now, I'm not saying that Jesus condoned homosexuality in this passage, but I would like to know your interpretation of this passage.
Sorry, admins, again off-topic. I may want to do some research and propose a new topic. If Rob wishes to reply I want to hear what he has to say and it does sorta mesh with the original topic, but I understand if this vein is forced to discontinue on this thread.
Edited by Jaderis, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 12:25 AM Rob has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 19 of 313 (377984)
01-19-2007 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Rob
01-19-2007 1:26 AM


Re: Descrimination...
scottness writes:
Human beings are heterosexual. I thought you knew that.
Well spotted.
But, other humans are homosexual or bisexual. I thought you knew that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 1:26 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 10:00 AM Larni has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 20 of 313 (377998)
01-19-2007 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Vacate
01-19-2007 2:35 AM


Re: Descrimination...
So you really think that the "others" you mention are having relations with members of the same sex for the purpose of reproduction?
Their are some strange things in nature. All beautiful in their own way. but I am talking about natural relations. Not all of them come to mind, but take certain flowers with both male and female sex organs.
Iwas not talking about three catagories of human beings, but different species and 'kinds' of sexuality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Vacate, posted 01-19-2007 2:35 AM Vacate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Vacate, posted 01-19-2007 1:30 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 21 of 313 (378006)
01-19-2007 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Larni
01-19-2007 8:09 AM


...some of you thought I was just a liar...
But, other humans are homosexual or bisexual.
And still other humans are murderers, liars, thiefs, and otherwise generally insolent, ignorant, and obfuscating. We should embrace them all for what this twisted world has made of them. They are works of beauty and splendor; products of their environment. They are trapped there, so we should not expect them to resist their programming. Let them all be... in peace.
So the truth... is that there is no way out? Just accept what is, and move on with your life? Is that what you're telling me?
The devil is a clever rat bastard. I hate him for what he does to us. I intend to lift up his snakes from the minds of those who are willing to come to their senses. I started with myself. And the battle continues. His poison has no hold on me any longer. I am almost out of the pond of lies entirely.
If you folks want to believe this stuff then be consistent, as Ravi's powerful argument reveals.
Stop judging those who you accuse of being the judge of you... They are products of their environment and cannot help what they are so you say. George Bush, the 'Christian Right', etc... are trapped in their prison just like you right?
You just turn your own judgement on them to justify yourselves. How proud is the thief that he nevers lies? Or the murderer that he never steals. And many of them do the same. I judge no one. I am a sinner too. I was exposed to pornography and molested as a boy by two different male persons. I know the struggles. I hold no derision over the homosexual, only empathy.
Someone came to proclaim freedom for the prisoners. For all the sinners of the world. Even the murderers and liars and theives. And He conquered. He helps us break our hard hearts. He holds the keys to heaven and hell.
Stop condemning each other and tell them the good news... 'We are forgiven'. We can know Him and need not hide. He will accept us if we just be honest with Him. If we are not honest, then we cannot hear Him, because He is honesty. Now, He is only your conscious, but if you open that door where He knocks, you can know Him. And He will give you the power to overcome the world and it's delusions. Your beaten down little conscious will be energized and you will be brought to life in the Spirit of God. You will rise from the dead as you still live. And no longer be blind while you still see.
We all have sins to turn from, and if we won't acknowledge that our sin is indeed sin, then we accept no forgiveness and are still in our sin by condemning ourselves to our lust for the sins we were never created for. If the truth is to find any place in us to take root, then we must be honest with ourselves.
1 John 1:10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
I'll bet some of you thought I was just a lair... I was more than that. Paul describs the heart of man with absolute specificity, and unparralleled accuracy.
Romans 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
When I saw myself, I repented in dust and ashes...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Larni, posted 01-19-2007 8:09 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 01-19-2007 10:20 AM Rob has replied
 Message 28 by Larni, posted 01-19-2007 11:06 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 22 of 313 (378008)
01-19-2007 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jaderis
01-19-2007 2:03 AM


Re: Descrimination...
Yes, they were "equal" before sin, so what gave "Adam" the right to "give his wife a different name" and "rule over her?" If they were equal, then "Eve" should still have as much rule over "Adam" as he does over her because they both "sinned" and aren't all sins equally egregious under the eyes of God?
He took the right to rule her because He turned from God. God does not justify it. It is just the natural course of sin. And without God, how can Eve recover? The salvation of both is found by going back to the source of such equality... God.
And where in the hell does it say in Genesis that Adam named Eve after the incident with the fruit? It doesn't. The word for "woman" was used in Genesis before said incident.
Actually it was 'ish' and 'isha'... Might be a good one for Arachnophilia or Anastasia. They love to find out such details of language and minutia. but the answer to your question is in Genesis 3:20. It is all in the context of the curse that they brought on us all.
Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jaderis, posted 01-19-2007 2:03 AM Jaderis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by arachnophilia, posted 01-19-2007 10:40 AM Rob has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 313 (378010)
01-19-2007 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Rob
01-19-2007 1:26 AM


Re: Descrimination...
quote:
Human beings are heterosexual.
Actually, they aren't.

But government...is not simply the way we express ourselves collectively but also often the only way we preserve our freedom from private power and its incursions. -- Bill Moyers (quoting John Schwarz)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 1:26 AM Rob has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 313 (378013)
01-19-2007 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Rob
01-19-2007 10:00 AM


Re: ...some of you thought I was just a liar...
And still other humans are murderers, liars, thiefs, and otherwise generally insolent, ignorant, and obfuscating. We should embrace them all for what this twisted world has made of them.
Yet more misrepresentation.
You consider homosexuality a sin. You try to hide the fact that it is YOU making such a distinction by claiming it is "Christ".
You simply use your fictional Christ as a cop out.
You also continue to post false comparisons. You compare actions with conditions (lying with ignorance), and actions that have an affect on others to those that affect only the individual (homosexuality and stealing).
Those are classic tactics of the conman; those are called misdirection.
The rest of your post is simply more off topic nonsense.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 10:00 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 6:37 PM jar has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 25 of 313 (378020)
01-19-2007 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Rob
01-19-2007 10:08 AM


Re: Descrimination...
Actually it was 'ish' and 'isha'... Might be a good one for Arachnophilia or Anastasia.
genesis 2, yes. "man" and "woman" are actually the same root, ish, and "woman" has the feminine ending, so ishah. what's the question?
20 Adam named his wife Eve,
as a side note, because it's interesting, "eve" is chavah, the causative form of chayim, "life."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 10:08 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 10:59 AM arachnophilia has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 26 of 313 (378027)
01-19-2007 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by arachnophilia
01-19-2007 10:40 AM


Re: Descrimination...
as a side note, because it's interesting, "eve" is chavah, the causative form of chayim, "life."
Yes... and her offspring would crush the head of the serpent ie. Jesus overcoming satan.
Thanks for the confirmation of the root of the word 'Adam' (or man).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by arachnophilia, posted 01-19-2007 10:40 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by arachnophilia, posted 01-19-2007 11:02 AM Rob has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 27 of 313 (378028)
01-19-2007 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Rob
01-19-2007 10:59 AM


Re: Descrimination...
Yes... and her offspring would crush the head of the serpent ie. Jesus overcoming satan.
that does not seem to be the purpose of the text.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 10:59 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 6:51 PM arachnophilia has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 28 of 313 (378030)
01-19-2007 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Rob
01-19-2007 10:00 AM


Re: ...some of you thought I was just a liar...
I'm honestly sorry to hear about your experience in the past.
However your position is idiotic.
As Jar points out: you concider being gay a sin; maybe in the same league as murder.
This is an idiotic position to take and a personal one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Rob, posted 01-19-2007 10:00 AM Rob has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 29 of 313 (378032)
01-19-2007 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jaderis
01-19-2007 2:03 AM


genesis?
Yes, they were "equal" before sin, so what gave "Adam" the right to "give his wife a different name"
adam - man, or more appropriately "mankind."
you're conflating two stories, i think. one in genesis 2, one in genesis 3. genesis 2 was written to give the hebrew marriage custom a traditional origin. genesis 3 was written to explain things like agriculture, pain in childbirth, snakes, etc.
if you are refering the name in genesis 2, "woman," "man" as a grammatically equall name.
ish - man, or more appropriately, "male."
ishah - woman, or "female."
the bit about "called her woman, because she came from man" is simply establishing the origin of the grammatical relation between the masculine and feminine genders in the hebrew language. it's by coincidence that "man" and "woman" have three of the same letters in english, but the relationship is much more obvious in hebrew.
adam gives his wife a proper name only after the curse. the name he gives here is:
chavah - "causes life."
and "rule over her?"
this is part of god's curse. it was probably written to explain the origin of patriarchal society, and the ancient hebrews often deeply misogynistic attitudes. they were equal before that point.
If they were equal, then "Eve" should still have as much rule over "Adam" as he does over her because they both "sinned" and aren't all sins equally egregious under the eyes of God?
each guilty party was given different curses. eve took charge and led her husband astray -- so her curse is to follow him. adam violate god's garden -- so he has to make his own. and the serpent spoke in contradiction to god -- so he has to eat dirt.
anyhow. really, to use the text as justification is circular, since the text was written to explain practices contemporary to the authors. all people are saying by quoting the bible as justification on this issue is "let's live in ancient israel."
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jaderis, posted 01-19-2007 2:03 AM Jaderis has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 30 of 313 (378040)
01-19-2007 11:31 AM


Wow, just wow.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024