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Author Topic:   Black Rednecks and White Liberals (by Thomas Sowell)
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 76 of 130 (378282)
01-20-2007 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by crashfrog
01-20-2007 12:08 AM


Re: Sowell's wrong
Crash, what is the illegitemacy rate among African-Americans?
How about the murder rate?
Bottom line is racism is real, but it's not the major problem facing black America today.
As for the rest - black on black violent crime, drug use, etc - these are sociological conditions well-known to stem from conditions of crushing poverty.
Another way to look at it is that these things are what causes crushing poverty.
Let me ask you something? You ever lived in a minority dominated neighborhood? Ever hear gunshots in the street in front of your home? Ever counsel drug addicts and prostitutes in such neighborhoods and help them start a new life? Ever talked to young people in such neighborhoods about working hard to make it when they believe they can't because they've been told white America will keep them back? You ever really helped someone successfully from such a disadvantaged background succeed? Ever dealt with people from a hardcore criminal background change?
How much of poor, black America have you really seen?
I ask not because just seeing or knowing these things means one would be correct, but just to see if you are really aware of what goes on?
If you ask me, a huge problem is the illegitimacy rate....the lack of positive male leadership in the home.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by crashfrog, posted 01-20-2007 12:08 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by crashfrog, posted 01-20-2007 10:59 AM randman has replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 77 of 130 (378311)
01-20-2007 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Hyroglyphx
01-19-2007 10:58 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
NJ,
Finished the "Black Rednecks White Liberals" essay of the book, will attempt to stomach the rest tomorrow.
Sorry, was not impressed. First it mainly relied on anectdote. Cite an 18th Century British writer on how Scots are shiftless and lazy. Cite a northern US scholar on how southerners are shiftless and lazy. Then cite anectdotes describing modern urban blacks as shiftless and lazy. So the same term was used therefore there is a connection?
I am going to argue that a snobbish opinion on any race on any continent at any time is going to use similar terms. And more often than not Sowell's common terms will be part of it. Disregard for life, laziness, unwillingness to learn, quickness to insult, etc. All of it he uses can be found across social classes and cultures world-wide.
What Sowell fails to do is to make actual connections between the cultures he describes. That someone describes each of those cultures in the same terminology doesn't cut it. One could easily describe traditional western Native culture from a description from the 18th century and a modern analysis of reservations and say "See, they were always frivolous and simple" See the connection?
I am big on citations. And one thing I noticed is that Sowell relies heavily on them (nothing bad about that, we call it metanalysis in science) but a good number of his supposed hard numbers are his own publications. This is problematic. There is nothing wrong with citing yourself. But citing yourself from pubs where you (possibly?) cite others research is academically bad news. Cite yourself where you came up with original information, to cite yourself where you cite another statistic is at best academically sloppy and possibly indicative of fraud.
So, I see many of Sowell's points. I am not throwing out any babies with bathwater. No one can deny that African-Americans are in a bad situation overall in America. And I also believe that some black Americans are perpetuating this downfall by playing into white stereotypes. Upper middle class born gangster rappers certainly should look at themselves in shame for what they helped create. (Not to in any way release the guilt of major record label producers). And not to knock hip-hop or rap as well, merely those who chose to use it as a tool to perpetuate hate for bucks. (btw I am a huge Michael Franti fan, Beatnigs, Disposable Heroes of the HipHopcrisy, Spearhead).
I just realized it is 3:00 AM here. Although friday, it is late. I will respond to your points on this portion of the post before my other problems with Sowell's first essay.

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-19-2007 10:58 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2007 1:00 PM Lithodid-Man has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 78 of 130 (378334)
01-20-2007 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by randman
01-20-2007 1:53 AM


Re: Sowell's wrong
Crash, what is the illegitemacy rate among African-Americans?
How about the murder rate?
You tell me, Randman, I'm not required to substantiate your statements. Do your own homework. What I asked you to do was substantiate your claim that adultery was higher among black people, because I do not believe that this has been established by research. So I'm asking you, again, to present your data.
As I said, violence among blacks isn't any higher than one would expect for a poverty-stricken group, so when the economic disparities that result from systemic racism against blacks are abated, those crimes will abate along with them.
Another way to look at it is that these things are what causes crushing poverty.
No. What causes crushing poverty is a lack of access to education and employment. And the reason for that is because of dilapidated schools in black communities and the fact that your average employer is less than half as likely to call a black person back for an interview as a white person with identical qualifications.
The symptoms are not the disease. The disease is poverty caused by systemic racism.
How much of poor, black America have you really seen?
Plenty. But the plural of "anecdote" is not "data." I'm sure "some of your best friends are black", Randman, but how much research have you seen on this subject? None? It sure sounds like it. Why don't you respond to the research I linked to NJ, upthread?
If you ask me, a huge problem is the illegitimacy rate....the lack of positive male leadership in the home.
No. Again, the huge problem is that a black person is less than half as likely to be called back for an interview as a white person with identical qualifications, because of systemic racism in the workforce. And they're a lot less likely to have those identical qualifications in the first place, because of the disparities in quality of education.
It all comes back to poverty, Randman, and it's the economic disparities that are a function of systemic racism that are responsible. Everything else is merely symptoms of that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by randman, posted 01-20-2007 1:53 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by randman, posted 01-20-2007 8:55 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 130 (378353)
01-20-2007 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by randman
01-19-2007 11:19 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
awesome post...thanks
I'm glad you liked it.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by randman, posted 01-19-2007 11:19 PM randman has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 130 (378356)
01-20-2007 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by kuresu
01-19-2007 11:37 PM


Re: Sowell's wrong
I really enjoy Bill Cosby--its true that the people who don't succeed are to lazy or they never had a chance to begin with. There are black people who make it. what's unfair, is that its much more difficult for them then it is for whites or other ethnic groups.
And why is that? Do negative attitudes about a certain race spring out of the ground for inexplicable reasons? This is irrespective of whether or not any one is actually at fault. I just want you to explain to me why "its much more difficult for them then it is for white or other ethnic groups." Can you explain why that is?
let me remind you again--rednecks ain't responsible for blacks failure in this society.
I agree. What Sowell is doing is tracing the behavior. Everyone is accountable for their own actions.
racism is an isidious, subtle, creeping monster that inhabits every person on this earth. some are just more open about it then others.
Yes, racism is an ugly and nasty thing. That's unquestionable. The problem I have is that people are labeled as racists when they aren't, and some people that actually are racist seem to get a pass. If you started a company called "WET" to be the counterpart of "BET," what kind of flack do you think you'd suffer over that? Or how about the ideology of the Nation of Islam or the Blank Panthers? Hardly ever hear a disparaging word about that. Why not condemn it all, EQUALLY? Racism is racism, is it not? Why are their levels of racism where one group gets a pass and the other doesn't?

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

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 Message 71 by kuresu, posted 01-19-2007 11:37 PM kuresu has not replied

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 Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 01-20-2007 1:32 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 130 (378358)
01-20-2007 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by randman
01-19-2007 11:45 PM


Re: Sowell's right
[qs]Racism is real, but the biggest problems in the black community are not dealing with racism from white folks, but they are problems such as black on black crime, elevation of negative cultural and social values, addictions, adultery and lack of commitment to one's spouse or loved ones, immorality and violence in general, advocating that becoming educated is a white thing, etc, etc,... These are moral, social and cultural problems that no one but black Americans themselves can solve
I particularly like the last part. (emphasis mine)
There have been lots of oppressed groups that rose above. It can be done, but it can't be done from the outside.
Exactly. And those that do try to repair from the inside, like Cosby or Sowell, are flamed for it.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by randman, posted 01-19-2007 11:45 PM randman has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 130 (378363)
01-20-2007 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Lithodid-Man
01-20-2007 7:08 AM


Re: Tom Sowell
Finished the "Black Rednecks White Liberals" essay of the book, will attempt to stomach the rest tomorrow.
Wow, you flew through that!
Sorry, was not impressed.
I'm sorry to hear that. I was sure you would have at least commented on his writing ability if nothing else.
First it mainly relied on anectdote. Cite an 18th Century British writer on how Scots are shiftless and lazy. Cite a northern US scholar on how southerners are shiftless and lazy. Then cite anectdotes describing modern urban blacks as shiftless and lazy. So the same term was used therefore there is a connection?
Was that what you gathered from Du Bois and McWhiney-- that they were snobbishly looking down on them? I got a sense of insightful realism stemming solely from observation.
I am going to argue that a snobbish opinion on any race on any continent at any time is going to use similar terms. And more often than not Sowell's common terms will be part of it. Disregard for life, laziness, unwillingness to learn, quickness to insult, etc. All of it he uses can be found across social classes and cultures world-wide.
Sure, no society is immune to all social ills, however, can you say with a straight face that there was not a vast difference in attitude and behavior from those of London in the 1800's juxtaposed by that of the North Britons or those living in Ulster County, Ireland? Are you really going to tell me that there is no real difference between Beverly Hills and Watts? I'm not saying this in defense of Beverly Hills or to speak disparagingly about the residents of Watts, I'm merely elucidating the point that there is a very serious disparity. Statistics are not anecdotal, they are factual. So why would that be any different in this case? Is it because its taboo to bring up such things?
I am big on citations. And one thing I noticed is that Sowell relies heavily on them (nothing bad about that, we call it metanalysis in science) but a good number of his supposed hard numbers are his own publications. This is problematic. There is nothing wrong with citing yourself. But citing yourself from pubs where you (possibly?) cite others research is academically bad news. Cite yourself where you came up with original information, to cite yourself where you cite another statistic is at best academically sloppy and possibly indicative of fraud.
I saw very few of his own citations. In fact, I see none. I'm now parsing through the index to see any of his own citations. All I see is a sea of citations coming from various sources.
So, I see many of Sowell's points. I am not throwing out any babies with bathwater. No one can deny that African-Americans are in a bad situation overall in America. And I also believe that some black Americans are perpetuating this downfall by playing into white stereotypes. Upper middle class born gangster rappers certainly should look at themselves in shame for what they helped create. (Not to in any way release the guilt of major record label producers). And not to knock hip-hop or rap as well, merely those who chose to use it as a tool to perpetuate hate for bucks. (btw I am a huge Michael Franti fan, Beatnigs, Disposable Heroes of the HipHopcrisy, Spearhead).
I listen to very select Hip Hop that usually focuses on positive aspects, rather than "gats, hooptie's and bitches." Lets see, Blackalicious, De La Soul, Digable Planets A Tribe Called Quest, the Roots, etc. But when we start getting into NWA, Master P, Snoop Dogg, etc, I pretty much check out.
Well, I'm sorry to hear that you thought the book was so bad. But I commend you on making the effort to actually give it a fighting chance.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Lithodid-Man, posted 01-20-2007 7:08 AM Lithodid-Man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Lithodid-Man, posted 01-21-2007 6:25 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 83 of 130 (378369)
01-20-2007 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Hyroglyphx
01-20-2007 12:23 PM


Re: Sowell's wrong
If you started a company called "WET" to be the counterpart of "BET," what kind of flack do you think you'd suffer over that?
If you don't understand why it's racist to have the "White Panthers", or "White Entertainment Network", or "White History Month", or a "White Pride March", then you're either absolutely committed to not thinking about these issues very carefully, or you're such a hopeless racist that it's impossible for you to think about race in a socially just way.
The privileged race doesn't need a channel especially for their race - because every channel is especially for their race. They don't need a month to celebrate their history - because their history is celebrated every month. They don't need to march in pride of their race - because society gives them reasons to be proud at all times.
Whites are "up." Blacks are "down." Hopefully that's simple enough language for you to understand. The answer to addressing that disparity isn't to push everybody up at the same time, but to push the down people up. You don't balance the teeter-toter by pushing up on both sides. It doesn't work. It doesn't even make sense.
Racism is racism, is it not?
Trying to offset white privilege with the scantest of bones thrown to minorities isn't racism. I mean, for god's sake. Black people are less than half as likely to be called back for an interview as white people with identical qualifications, and your beef is that there's a TV channel called "BET"?
What the fuck is wrong with you? If you don't want to watch BET, don't. If you want to watch the "Privileged White People Channel", that's every other channel on the TV.
The point is that there is real racism that represents real, unfair obstacles to the progress of black people - and then there's this shit in your post, which is nothing more than racist whining at the slightest erosion of white privilege.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2007 12:23 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2007 3:35 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 130 (378413)
01-20-2007 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by crashfrog
01-20-2007 1:32 PM


Re: Sowell's wrong
If you don't understand why it's racist to have the "White Panthers", or "White Entertainment Network", or "White History Month", or a "White Pride March", then you're either absolutely committed to not thinking about these issues very carefully, or you're such a hopeless racist that it's impossible for you to think about race in a socially just way.
Crash, was the fight for many years in this country the abolition of segregation? Yes, it was. What sense does it make to have "Black Entertainment Television?" Why not the Asian channel while we're at it, so that it excludes everyone but Asians. The fact that anyone would their station Black Entertainment is beyond stupid, and its completely racist. I can't believe you are even trying to defend it, its so transparent. But the same exact premise, "White Entertainment Television" would be shut down the nanosecond it came out. That's complete hypocrisy. But hey, why not just leave race out of the equation. Hey, there's a novel idea.
The privileged race
The privileged race? Yes, let me tell you how I'm living in the lap of luxury due to my special privileges. I'm going to knock on my neighbor's door, who is black, and rub in his face how my 790 square foot cottage is completely better than his 1,500 square foot home.
You couldn't possibly believe the nonsense that comes out of your mouth.
doesn't need a channel especially for their race - because every channel is especially for their race.
What? What? Every other channel is devoted to only one race? Source?
They don't need a month to celebrate their history - because their history is celebrated every month.
What? Wow... What can I even say to something so preposterously absurd? And where and what, ahem, do non-blacks celebrate every month over racial identity?
They don't need to march in pride of their race - because society gives them reasons to be proud at all times.
You know, I don't know if you're aware of this, but you can't help how you were born. Since we have no control over the way were born, there should be no pride in any race or sex, as if it were some sort of achievement.
Whites are "up." Blacks are "down."
I'll let Oprah, Bill Cosby, 50 Cent, Michael Jordan, Evander Holyfield, Condoleeza Rice, and the like know how bad they have it. Actually, because I'm living so phat, maybe I'll be a nice guy and offer them a leg up-- you know, because they are down and I'm up.
Trying to offset white privilege with the scantest of bones thrown to minorities isn't racism. I mean, for god's sake. Black people are less than half as likely to be called back for an interview as white people with identical qualifications, and your beef is that there's a TV channel called "BET"?
You know, its been my experience that many people get a job simply because their black, or any other minority.
What the fuck is wrong with you? If you don't want to watch BET, don't.
I don't watch BET, but that's probably because I have basic cable. I don't have a problem with BET, what I have a problem with is blatant hypocrisy.
The point is that there is real racism that represents real, unfair obstacles to the progress of black people - and then there's this shit in your post, which is nothing more than racist whining at the slightest erosion of white privilege.
From where I'm sitting, you're the only racist here with your unwaivering support of all black people, simply because they are black. That's racism Crash! You're just so obtuse and indoctrinated by your leftist ideals that you think you racism only extends to non-caucasians.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 01-20-2007 1:32 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 01-20-2007 5:32 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 85 of 130 (378431)
01-20-2007 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Hyroglyphx
01-20-2007 3:35 PM


Re: Sowell's wrong
What sense does it make to have "Black Entertainment Television?"
What sense does it make to have "Fox News" now that Republicans lost Congress?
It's not like the government created BET, NJ, or Martin Luther King, Jr. The market supports BET (on cable, BTW) because it offers programming that appeals to its demographic in a way that meanstream, white-oriented programming doesn't. If it didn't, they wouldn't be on the air. Simple as that.
Why not the Asian channel while we're at it, so that it excludes everyone but Asians.
You mean AZN? I watch that all the time. That channel and Cartoon Network are the only one who run any anime.
But the same exact premise, "White Entertainment Television" would be shut down the nanosecond it came out.
Yes. Because it's racist, not to mention redundant. If you want to watch TV for whites, turn to any other channel. Fox News, especially.
The privileged race?
Yeah, the privileged race. You're privileged, for instance, by being part of what is considered the "normal" race. You're privileged by being twice as likely as an identically-qualified black guy to be called back for a job interview, for instance.
You couldn't possibly believe the nonsense that comes out of your mouth.
How can it be nonsense? You've already admitted that it's true. Look, you've already said that black people face obstacles that others don't. You gave a lot of examples of how black people don't seem to do as well in America as they should.
Well, look at the flip side of that. What does that say about you? That you don't face the same obstacles. That American society doesn't hold you back. What else should we call that besides privilege?
You can walk into any department store in the nation and find the stuff you need to take care of your hair. That's a privilege.
Every other channel is devoted to only one race?
Yeah. The white race.
Look. Turn on the TV and watch the programs. If you see a program that, to you, doesn't seem to have anything to do with race - that's a program made especially for white people. That's why you don't see the racial component - it's your race. It's transparent to you. Why wouldn't it be?
Think about it for a minute. List to yourself the stereotypes about white people. Now, think about where you first heard those, what the source of those stereotypes is. Minority comedians, almost certainly. Don't you find it odd that you can't think of a single white stereotype that a minority didn't come up with? Isn't it odd that all the stuff they say about white people - have to get drunk to dance well, get sleepy from turkey and wine, talk like they're from the suburbs - seem totally normal to you?
You're white. So, naturally, white-oriented stuff seems normal or raceless to you. That's how you know it's white-oriented!
And where and what, ahem, do non-blacks celebrate every month over racial identity?
Everywhere. Every history book has the history of white people. Every channel talks about the accomplishments of white people. Every magazine that isn't explicitly minority-oriented is about white people.
How many white people are on the cover of Time every month? How many minorities?
I'll let Oprah, Bill Cosby, 50 Cent, Michael Jordan, Evander Holyfield, Condoleeza Rice, and the like know how bad they have it.
Actually, every one of those people did have it bad, thanks to racism. That they overcame it to some degree is irrelevant. And, look at your examples. Bill Gates makes a lot more money than Opera. Condi still reports to George Bush.
I mean it's not even clear to me what you think you've proven with these examples.
You know, its been my experience that many people get a job simply because their black, or any other minority.
See, this is racism. You're a racist. Your assumption is - whenever a minority gets a job over a white, it's "affirmative action", because there's no way a shiftless nigger could be more qualified than a white person.
I don't have a problem with BET, what I have a problem with is blatant hypocrisy.
But, of course, you get CBS, ABC, NBC, and all the rest of the broadcast channels - which are white-oriented programming. (And, again, the way that you can detect this is for you, a white guy, to sit down and watch those channels and, if you can't detect a racial orientation to the programming - it's white-oriented, obviously.)
From where I'm sitting, you're the only racist here with your unwaivering support of all black people, simply because they are black.
I have no idea what you're talking about, and this charge is simply false. I've offered no "unwaivering support" for anybody at all simply because of their race.
But any idiot can take a look at a situation where employers choose white people over equally-qualified black ones and see - that's racist. And it's going on - it's prevalent. Endemic.
And the people who stand up for that racism system - like you - are racists. And you're sitting there blaming the victim because it's easier than discharging your responsibility - your complicity for taking advantage of a system that rewards you at the expense of black people.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2007 3:35 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 86 of 130 (378438)
01-20-2007 6:05 PM


Thinking about privilege
It's not surprising to me to see NJ lampoon the idea of "white privilege" since he's pretty clearly racist, but I see enough other people disagree with the obvious fact of white privilege that I think the concept merits some explaining. Once I do I think you'll agree that the phenomenon of white privilege is nothing more than the flipside of systemic racism against non-whites.
Imagine that we're talking about the society of, say, 19th-century Georgia, where blacks are slaves. Now, if you're a black man, you can't:
1) Vote
2) Own anything
3) Marry a white person
4) Decide where you want to work
etc. Everybody understands what it means to be a slave.
But flip it. As a white person, you can:
1) Vote
2) Own things
3) Marry a white person
4) Make decisions about your employment
and so on. You have privileges:
quote:
White privilege is a term denoting purported rights, advantages, exemptions or immunities enjoyed by white persons in Western countries beyond what is commonly experienced by nonwhites in those same nations. It has been described as "an invisible package of unearned assets which I [as a white person] can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was 'meant' to remain oblivious" (McIntosh, 1989).
White privilege - Wikipedia
To you, these seem like things you're just "supposed" to have. Even if you support slavery, these are just part of your white "birthright." These are your "human rights."
But if you don't have them, they don't seem like human rights at all. They seem like gifts to white people - special privileges, in other words.
White privilege is very real. It doesn't mean that white people get a check every month, or that they're guaranteed to have easy lives or something ridiculous. Those are just ridiculous strawmen of a very real phenomenon.
When a white person is twice as likely to be called in for interviews as an identically-qualified black person, that's a privilege. When the first guy your boss accuses of stealing from the till is anybody but the white employee, that's white privilege. Receiving lighter sentences for the same crimes is a privilege white people have.
When you turn on the news and see nothing but stories about important white people delivered by white reporters, that's white privilege. When the news media, the movies, the TV shows all make it seem like being "white" means being "normal", and being "non-white" means being a "minority", that's a privilege. When the culture consistently heralds the accomplishments of white people, but other races only get a token level of praise, that's privilege.
When the music of white people is considered "culture" but the music of other races is considered "ethnic", that's privilege.
quote:
White privilege may be subtle or "invisible" to those who benefit from it. McIntosh (1989) and Jensen (1998) suggest some less obvious privileges that attach to being white in America:
* Whites can turn on the television or read the newspaper and expect to see members of their own race widely represented;
* Whites can expect their children to read books and materials in school that affirm and discuss the history of their race;
* Whites can swear, dress in second-hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having others attribute these behaviors to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of their race;
* Whites can speak their opinions without being asked to speak for their race;
* Whites can do well without being called credits to their race;
* Whites easily locate books, greeting cards, toys, and magazines prominently featuring members of their race;
* Whites do not have to wonder whether they are being singled out because of their race when being approached by the police;
* Whites can take jobs without accusations that they were hired as part of racial quotas;
* Whites are most often evaluated by members of their own race;
* Whites do not appear threatening to those of the dominant culture.
White privilege isn't really invisible; it just appears "normal." In theory these are all things that all humans should enjoy from each other. In practice, these are things largely enjoyed only by whites. That's why they represent privilege.
As you can see, there's nothing nonsensical or unreasonable about what I'm saying. White privilege isn't in the form of a check you get every month. It comes in the form of little perks you've been taught are just the normal way white people are supposed to be treated. White privilege simply can't be denied without denying that people of minorities are mistreated and systematically disadvantaged by our society. Obviously, if non-whites are disadvantaged, whites must be advantaged. That's just simple logic.
The logic of white privilege is inescapable and can't be denied, though plenty of white people do, because they aren't getting a check in the mail or their own life situation isn't as good as some black person they know about. That sort of race envy is, of course, racist at its heart; it's nothing more than anger at "uppity niggers" who dare to be more successful - or even just plain luckier - than less successful whites. It's an expression of racist privilege, the assumption that no black person should have anything unless a white person decides to give it to them. And it's anger at the slightest suggestion that the privileges of whites has been eroded.
Well, get over yourselves. Sure, you probably don't make as much money as Oprah. Oprah's success, though, didn't magically get rid of racism or make a black man more likely to be called back for an interview than a white person with the same resume plus a felony conviction. (Having your felony record not count against your chances of employment as compared to a black person with the same felony, or even no felony, is a privilege.)

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-21-2007 4:22 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 127 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2007 6:56 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 87 of 130 (378446)
01-20-2007 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Hyroglyphx
01-19-2007 11:17 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
quote:
Its not a matter of how underfunded the American public school system is. I already know that its deplorable.
The point is, juggs, that your claim that everybody, including poor blacks, are on an equal educational footing because the public school system facilitates it is completely false.
I mean, seriously, how far does your head have to be stuck up your backside to think that inner city, predominantly minority schools that are grossly underfunded can provide the same education as rich white suburban schools?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-19-2007 11:17 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 130 (378461)
01-20-2007 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by crashfrog
01-19-2007 1:21 PM


Re: Maligning NJ As A Racist
Crashfrog writes:
Good, good, now we're starting from a position of reality. Yes, in the US, black people are economically and educationally disadvantaged.
Crash, you're soooo impossible to reason with. This is plain ole spin. NJ's message which you responded to correctly stated that in America blacks have the same educational advantages as whites and in fact more so since schools generally go out of their way to see to it that they succeed
. We know that to be the case.
If you don't agree, why not just say so and move on rather than rehashing the same ole in your futile attempt to paint NJ as a racist?
NJ's statement: "The liberal mantra is that its racism. This is such a specious plea because blacks have the same chance to excel as anyone else, especially in the public school system that go out of their way to try and ensure their success. Its not racism. Its an unwillingness due to a culturally lax attitude that hinders them. You are trying to pass the blame on anyone except the obvious."

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by crashfrog, posted 01-19-2007 1:21 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 01-20-2007 7:19 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 90 by crashfrog, posted 01-20-2007 7:41 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 91 by Omnivorous, posted 01-20-2007 8:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 94 by tudwell, posted 01-21-2007 2:11 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 130 (378464)
01-20-2007 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Buzsaw
01-20-2007 7:12 PM


Re: Maligning NJ As A Racist
NJ's message which you responded to correctly stated that in America blacks have the same educational advantages as whites and in fact more so since schools generally go out of their way to see to it that they succeed
. We know that to be the case.
You can only know that if you are TOTALLY ignorant, willfully ignorant, of the actual case.
NJ's statement: "The liberal mantra is that its racism. This is such a specious plea because blacks have the same chance to excel as anyone else, especially in the public school system that go out of their way to try and ensure their success. Its not racism. Its an unwillingness due to a culturally lax attitude that hinders them. You are trying to pass the blame on anyone except the obvious."
NJ's statement is not simply wrong, it can only be believed if the person saying it willfully ignores the facts.
When someone willfully ignores the facts and continues to post false assertions, are they lying?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Buzsaw, posted 01-20-2007 7:12 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 90 of 130 (378473)
01-20-2007 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Buzsaw
01-20-2007 7:12 PM


Re: Maligning NJ As A Racist
We know that to be the case.
In fact, we know that the exact opposite is the case, and that a black person is much more likely than a white person to be a student at a dilapidated, failing school.
In fact that's such an obviously true statement that I really have to question anybody who would offer the reverse claim. In NJ's case, though, I've provided ample reasoning and sufficient justification for my conclusion that his remarks stem from inherently racist attitudes, so please refer to those posts if you think I'm unfairly characterizing him that way. He's certainly made exactly the same claim about me, but in his case, he's provided no evidence or example of it.
NJ's statement:
NJ's statement has been proven completely false by my evidence, and by the evidence of others - black people do not have the same chance to succeed because significant obstacles are placed in their paths, obstacles that whites simply don't have to deal with.
The only people passing the blame are those who, rather than face their complicity in a racist society, choose to blame the victims of racism rather than the perpetrators. Such an attitude is inherently racist and should be called so whenever it arises, for instance in the case of NJ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Buzsaw, posted 01-20-2007 7:12 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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