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Author Topic:   King David found guilty on all counts.
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1 of 174 (370604)
12-18-2006 9:23 AM


King David was found guilty of adultery, murder and coveting another man's wife despite his pleas of innocence.
In his defense David claimed:
"I was at my palace when he was killed," said David - being portrayed by Daniel Kirsch, a biblical scholar - when asked by the prosecuting attorney if he murdered the husband of a woman with whom he had had an affair. "I did not lay a glove on him, and if I had, it would not fit."
So was Bathsheba just a Good Jewish Mother looking out for the interests of her son?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Taz, posted 12-18-2006 11:24 AM jar has not replied
 Message 3 by ringo, posted 12-18-2006 1:46 PM jar has not replied
 Message 4 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 12-18-2006 2:53 PM jar has not replied
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 12-18-2006 4:38 PM jar has replied
 Message 7 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 12:22 AM jar has replied
 Message 9 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-19-2006 2:14 AM jar has not replied
 Message 11 by riVeRraT, posted 12-19-2006 5:40 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 174 (370692)
12-18-2006 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Brian
12-18-2006 4:38 PM


Way before the whores

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 12-18-2006 4:38 PM Brian has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 174 (370864)
12-19-2006 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Rob
12-19-2006 12:22 AM


Why bring it up?
Mainly because Hebrew University brought it up and I think it's funny, humorous. How often to I get to make puns such as cart before the whores.
Anyway, they did not even charge him with the really great crimes he committed during his reign. They gave him a pass of the purges that he carried out against potential political rivals or his genocide.
King David is an interesting subject. If he actually lived, he was pretty much the typical Tyrant of the period, the Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot or Stalin of the Kingdom (if there ever was a kingdom of Israel or Judah) Era.
As to your specific questions since I don't believe there ever was a Fall I'd say he wasn't fallen.
As to immoral, he did almost nothing that was Moral.
That he was weak? No, not hardly.
That he was Evil? Not within the mores of the period. Quite frankly, none of the things he did, murder by proxy to steal a man's wife, genocide, purging the potential rivals to the throne, would have been considered particularly evil or even wrong by his contemporaries.
What worldview are you promoting by bringing up this unscrupulous episode in Biblical history?
Honest perhaps?
What do you want to hear?
Peoples opinions of course. What other purpose could there be?
I was not sure what direction this might take. One possibility, and one that I had some hope might come up, is the idea that Christian teaching, at least at the Church and Sunday School level, might finally begin to honestly explore Christian history just as Hebrew University is exploring Jewish History.
Many terrible acts have happened in the past in the name of Christianity and they continue today. In many ways, Christianity is one of the more bankrupt religions on today's scene. If there is to be hope of changing Christianity we must first acknowledge what we, as Christians, have done wrong in the past, examine honestly what we are doing now and try at the least, not repeat the errors of the past.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 12:22 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 11:58 AM jar has replied
 Message 20 by Brian, posted 12-19-2006 12:45 PM jar has replied
 Message 31 by riVeRraT, posted 12-19-2006 5:23 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 174 (370874)
12-19-2006 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Rob
12-19-2006 11:58 AM


Steps to sollution?
I don't think Christian orthodoxy could more accurately portray all men, than portraying them as depraved, desperately wicked, and in absolute need of a savior.
What an absolute copout. That is certainly the weak and easy answer. Let GOD do it.
I don't think it's a matter of avoidance in reapeating the errors of the past. We are inherently programed to repeat them. It's our nature!
Again with the excuses. You are certainly illuminating why so much of Christianity today is morally bankrupt and thus, quite honestly, at best irrelevant and at worst, malignant.
It goes against everything that Jesus taught.
You appear to me, to be condemning what is perfectly natural. How can we look to anything other than something above ourselves (or the transcendant) with which to stop what you find so offensive?
We might turn to Jesus teachings, to the lessons from the Bible.
We received the GIFT in the Garden of Eden, the Knowledge of Good and Evil. With that gift came a charge; we should try to do what is right, try not to do what is wrong and when we fail, honestly acknowledge that failure and try to do better in the future.
It really is as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 11:58 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 12:26 PM jar has not replied
 Message 18 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 12:44 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 174 (370885)
12-19-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rob
12-19-2006 12:44 PM


Re: Steps to sollution?
It is either a copout or it isn't.
But it is weak. The cross challenges everything you believe in materila terms. The right to power and the right to use that power.
But it is weak. That's why it's true.
You got an intersection with all kinds of raods. Power, fame, senuality etc. And then there is this old wooden cross. Th old timber is terribly out of place among the others.
Our only alternative to God diong it, is to do it ourself!
If we do it ourself, then we by implication play God.
We can't hanlde the forbidden fruit jar. The weakness is in admitting that I have failed.
Some people are not strong enough to be weak.
What?
Sorry but just more copout and yet another example that many Christians don't have a clue what Christianity is all about.
Read the Gospels. They are about doing. Not about stepping back and saying "I can't do it. Poor little me."
Read Jesus messages, they are all about doing. Your ass falls in a crack on the sabbath? Don't wait until the next day, pull it out.
You have excess? Give some of it to others.
Read Matthew 25:33-46. It clearly says "do it". Do it yourself. Do it just because it is the right thing to do.
Don't do it FOR Jesus. If you do the right thing for others you will have done it for Him.
Check out the thread Message 1. Read the whole thread.
Living a Christian life is not about platitudes, it is about doing.
Simple, not easy.
But it really is as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 12:44 PM Rob has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 174 (370887)
12-19-2006 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Brian
12-19-2006 12:45 PM


Re: Why bring it up?
Yes and no. I am not sure whether they think David actually existed. Personally I imagine that there was some factual person the stories are based on. There might even have been some confederation of city-states that some King held sway over.
But I do think they understand that the meanings behind the myths are important. I imagine that like the Exodus Myths, the Conquest of Canaan myths and others there may be some kernel of actual history hidden within.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Brian, posted 12-19-2006 12:45 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Brian, posted 12-19-2006 1:13 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 174 (370896)
12-19-2006 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Brian
12-19-2006 1:13 PM


Re: Why bring it up?
Well, heading back towards David, the story itself is one that contains impossibilities and also gives us a glimpse into what likely was normal political life then as well as right down to today.
One example is David's purge of Saul's heirs. They would have been a danger to his rule, and in particular to the idea of creating a dynasty. The obvious solution is to kill them all, and he does. The one problem with the story, and one indication that it is actually several tales merged into one, is that after he kills them all off, he later finds yet one more. Further, it appears from the story that he knew about this spare all along.
True to form, the course he selects is to tell the guy that all is forgiven and so persuades the sucker to "Come on Down."
Big mistake.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Brian, posted 12-19-2006 1:13 PM Brian has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 174 (370978)
12-19-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by riVeRraT
12-19-2006 5:23 PM


Re: Why bring it up?
Thank you sir.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by riVeRraT, posted 12-19-2006 5:23 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 96 of 174 (377625)
01-17-2007 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by joshua221
01-17-2007 3:38 PM


Re: Let Those Without Sin Cast the First Stone
I took the argument to another level entirely by describing how human morality cannot change because human nature cannot change because humans cannot be GOD.
Totally irrelevant nonsense and classic kiddie bullshit.
No thinking person would ever see that bald assertion as anything but the rantings of someone who is totally clueless.
You have taken three unrelated items and strung them together as though they were related.
You said bananas cannot change because elephants cannot change because they are not cod liver oil.
Now granted, your post is funny (not as great as the new Volvo ad of the Dad putting his preschooler in the child safety seat while she tells him of her day), but was humor what you intended?
First your mention of God. Unrelated, irrelevant and and assuming facts not in evidence.
Second, your mention of human nature. Undefined and frankly undefinable. Not supported by any evidence. To even consider that there is some entity called "Human Nature" is to ignore ALL evidence and to create a handy little copout for your own weaknesses and failure.
Third to assert morality cannot change. How absurd. Not only does morality change, it is constantly changing. There is no universal and absolute morality and no one has ever been able to show such a thing exists.
Even your own post shows that morality does change. You quote others claiming:
Your Evidence: No country would declare genocide or reinstate slavery. Thus, human morality has increased.
My Evidence: Iraq War, Sweatshops, Corporations, Rwandan Genocide.
Yes, look at those. And EVERY single example there shows morality changing.
Of course you also throw in some totally unrelated items like Corporations which just shows you have no idea what a Corporation is.
But other than your tossing in nonsense examples, let's look at the list.
Many folk believe the Iraq War immoral.
Many folk believe sweatshops immoral.
Many folk believe Rwandan Genocide (and the fact that you brought up Rwandan Genocide simply shows how pathetically ignorant of current events you are) immoral.
The fact that there are folk who consider such things immoral proves that morality does change.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by joshua221, posted 01-17-2007 3:38 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by joshua221, posted 01-17-2007 11:10 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 174 (377690)
01-17-2007 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by joshua221
01-17-2007 11:10 PM


more nonsense
There is a universal and absolute morality.
Yeah, others have made such a claim. However no one has yet presented an example of such a critter.
You are saying that no universal morality exists but fail to realize that if this is true then there is no "right" and there is no "wrong", and if that is true then there are no standards and humans would never feel guilt in living an unjust life.
How silly. Of course there is right and wrong. Don't post nonsense.
Right and wrong are determined by each culture in each age. Morality is like all other knowledge, something learned, something agreed upon by society and also based on the individual's experience.
But then why has human morality not changed?
Again just plain silly. Of course morality has changed. Stop posting just plain nonsense.
Is it monolithic? No, of course not.
Does it vary between individuals and cultures? Of course. It is always evolving.
Those pieces of evidence were to expose the still immoral action of humankind today.
And there is the basic fallacy of your argument. There is no such thing as humankind morality. Humankind is a collection of individuals, cultures, societies and communities. Morality is something involving an individual.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by joshua221, posted 01-17-2007 11:10 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 2:02 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 119 of 174 (378384)
01-20-2007 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by joshua221
01-20-2007 2:02 PM


Re: more nonsense
Every example of morality changing has been refuted by me, care to add another piece to be dealt with?
They say that humans are more moral in issues such as slavery and genocide but this argument is based in ignorance because these things still exist freely in the societies which they say are morally superior.
What?
Morally superior? Please point out where I made any such rediculous claim?
Please point out where I consider slavery moral?
I would argue that all cultures and societies stand by the same moral principles which all humans have and share and that disruptions in this standard are abnormalities dealing with those who live for themselves and begin to do things in their societies at the expense of their fellow humans.
I don't doubt that you would make such a fool argument. Does it have any meaning? If so, yuo have hidden it well.
What does that have to do with my comment?
jar writes:
And there is the basic fallacy of your argument. There is no such thing as humankind morality. Humankind is a collection of individuals, cultures, societies and communities. Morality is something involving an individual.
Morality is nothing more than an agreed social behavior standard. Morality changes with culture, era and society. It is dynamic and like all other knowledge, learned.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 2:02 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 2:54 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 121 of 174 (378399)
01-20-2007 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by joshua221
01-20-2007 2:54 PM


Re: more nonsense
This argument has been given by those who think morality to be on the rise. Nations who purportedly would never be involved with genocide and slavery. Usually referring to the United States and other industrialized and "more advanced" nations.
To deny slavery's existence is ignorance to the sweatshops which manufacture all of your clothing.
And no this does not do a disservice to "real" slavery as they are both atrocious and both should not exist but human morality has NOT changed and still allows such behavior. Self-service.
I'm sorry but that is simply nonsense. First, not all clothing is made in a sweatshop. Second, a sweatshop is not slavery. Third, I do not even condone sweatshops.
You said morality is learned and I argue that it is an attribute which all humans are born with in their nature, the ability to discern right from wrong; the nature of humans becomes something which is morally unjust when individuals decide to act wrongly for their own benefit.
LOL
Sorry but that simply supports my position that morality is learned.
Therefore a mankind standard for morality must exist for we each have the ability to discern what is right and what is wrong.
Again, simply wrong. I consider certain behaviors as immoral where others may consider them moral. The fact that there are disagreements as to what is moral shows that there is no mankind standard for morality.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 2:54 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 3:20 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 123 of 174 (378411)
01-20-2007 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by joshua221
01-20-2007 3:20 PM


Re: more nonsense
But there exists what is truly and absolutely right and we can discern what that is, there is a standard and the standard is what is perfectly right and good.
So many claim. But that is all they do, make unsupported claims.
If we were unable to know what was right and good then we there would be little reason for us to exist as we could not live a good life or even know what that entails, everything dealing with morality and conscience would be a subjective absurdity.
WHAT????????????????

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 3:20 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 3:45 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 125 of 174 (378415)
01-20-2007 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by joshua221
01-20-2007 3:45 PM


really heading way off topic.
Without this "standard" so to speak, the choice between right and wrong would be subjective. So any action from murder to theft would be acceptable in this world. Nothing would matter.
Absolute nonsense. But if you would like to discuss why it is totally false please start a thread.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 3:45 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
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