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Author Topic:   -Moral Standard In All of Humanity-
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 72 (378417)
01-20-2007 3:58 PM


There exists what is truly and absolutely right and we can discern what that is, there is a standard and the standard is what is perfectly right and good. If we were unable to know what was right and good then there would be little reason for us to exist as we could not live a good life or even know what that entails, everything dealing with morality and conscience would be a subjective absurdity.
Without this "standard" so to speak, the choice between right and wrong would be subjective. So any action from murder to theft would be acceptable in this world. Nothing would matter.
We know that such a model or standard exists because we trust that God did not create some sort of silly and simple-minded game for humans to take part in.
Why is this nonsense?

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 01-20-2007 6:20 PM joshua221 has replied
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 Message 72 by MadaManga, posted 03-23-2007 10:08 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 72 (378460)
01-20-2007 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coragyps
01-20-2007 6:08 PM


The choice between right and wrong has always been subjective, Prophex: it's determined by the culture one lives in. Actions that we 21st-century Americans say are deeply immoral have been perfectly moral at other times and in other places. Take slavery or the death penalty for ten-year-old pickpockets.....
Slavery and the death penalty have never been moral, morality was sacrificed for the benefit of selfish and stupid human beings.
Maybe because we don't know that any gods exist. If any do, we don't know that they don't absolutely delight in making folks play silly games. Maybe because "perfectly right and good" has no meaning out here in the world, but only as a simplistic mental construct.
I can prove God's existence but I understand that I cannot put evidence into God's existence without adequately proving that in the first place.
Evidence for a moral absolute is in the word that describes our human ability to discern right from wrong. Conscience.
Because humans can know what is right and what is wrong, there must be an answer for every situation and every question as to what the good is. What is good must be good for every human being or conscience has no use for us and is non-existent.
Because humans have this ability, there must be moral absolutes/standards where in which every right or good action falls. You are putting out a statement which makes the world into a place where there is no wrong action, there is nothing that one can do that is immoral if morality is subjective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Coragyps, posted 01-20-2007 6:08 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by CK, posted 01-20-2007 7:16 PM joshua221 has not replied
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 Message 9 by sidelined, posted 01-20-2007 7:26 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 10 by Coragyps, posted 01-20-2007 7:30 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 17 by anglagard, posted 01-20-2007 10:44 PM joshua221 has replied
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 72 (378474)
01-20-2007 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
01-20-2007 6:20 PM


Re: on standards of right and wrong
But where is this absolute standard?
How does everyone discern that standard?
This standard is in all of us, we know what is right. Societies and individuals know that murder is wrong, they know that stealing is wrong, etc, but we can also choose to go against what we know for ourselves and our own desires.
How utterly wrong can you get. If society says murder is wrong, then it is wrong. If society says theft is unacceptable, then it is unacceptable.
So, it is "right" to murder and to steal in a society which accepts or promotes these actions as right and good actions?
First, we may believe there is a God but we do not know that.
Second, if God exists God could very well be Loki.
I must admit I have not given the thought that I need to to be saved in how we know God exists a god whatever. I have relied on the 5 proofs of Aquinas but have actually not relied on them at all as I have been virtually not thinking at all about whether God a god whatever exists. I have accepted it as something that is true through faith I guess. I feel that there is no way to go back really to think about whether a god exists when you have believed that God does exist and is a great part of your life and eventual death for so long.
I don't think the word blind could describe my faith that God exists and created me because I have the feeling that God is something so much more than thought and reason. I have began to believe that God wants to see humans think and know and do something with their lives. And I am not an irrational creature.
But I still used the line "trust the God isn't playing some sort of game" just to really throw you off and make you realize that absolute human morality exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 01-20-2007 6:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 01-20-2007 7:51 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 18 by iceage, posted 01-20-2007 11:27 PM joshua221 has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 72 (378475)
01-20-2007 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by sidelined
01-20-2007 7:26 PM


Is it ever OK to kill someone? To steal? To bear false witness? If you think about it you will find that the situation is not always cut and dried and sometimes there is no good answer to a situation but only a lesser of two evils so to speak.
True, but to deduce the more morally "right" decision is all that we can do in situations such as these.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by sidelined, posted 01-20-2007 7:26 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by sidelined, posted 01-20-2007 8:08 PM joshua221 has replied
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 72 (378479)
01-20-2007 7:57 PM


We all know what is right and we all know what is wrong. Certain cases force us into deciding what the right and good is, it may be a struggle, but we can all make the right choice.

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 72 (378500)
01-20-2007 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by sidelined
01-20-2007 8:08 PM


non-response
Edited by prophex, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 72 (378507)
01-20-2007 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by anglagard
01-20-2007 10:44 PM


Re: The Good, The Bad, and the Indifferent
Music like "favorite ice cream" or "favorite color" is subjective.
Surprised at that statement, we are dealing with objectivities here.
Subjective: what is better, blue or red, chocolate or vanilla
Objective: What is right? What is Justice? How should one live? Why do I exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by anglagard, posted 01-20-2007 10:44 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 72 (378508)
01-20-2007 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by iceage
01-20-2007 11:27 PM


Re: on standards of right and wrong
Context please.
Explain the situation you are quoting from or you have shown me nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by iceage, posted 01-20-2007 11:27 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by iceage, posted 01-21-2007 12:22 AM joshua221 has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 72 (378509)
01-21-2007 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
01-20-2007 7:51 PM


Re: on standards of right and wrong
Have you given up at the question?
So, it is "right" to murder and to steal in a society which accepts or promotes these actions as right and good actions?
I would like to see some evidence perhaps as to why it is acceptable besides "it most certainly is", otherwise it looks as if I have stumped you.
You see, there really is a "standard" that exists. We can all see it and decide what is righteous. To deny it's existence is to deny the existence of morality altogether.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 01-20-2007 7:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 72 (378510)
01-21-2007 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by sidelined
01-20-2007 8:08 PM


Your "right" should be the same as mine as long as we are correct in our judgements and follow exacty the standard of perfection that exists. Unfortunately we are all imperfect and following this perfectly just model is often difficult.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by sidelined, posted 01-20-2007 8:08 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 72 (378515)
01-21-2007 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by iceage
01-21-2007 12:22 AM


Re: on standards of right and wrong
It may have been anything, if there isn't context then it could be anything. It could be a dream.
Just write a little about the story and what you were actually quoting so we can examine it further.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by iceage, posted 01-21-2007 12:22 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 72 (379537)
01-24-2007 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by kuresu
01-21-2007 1:27 AM


Re: The Good, The Bad, and the Indifferent
nevermind. deleted it as it is outlined below
why'd you call me kiddo
Edited by prophex, : No reason given.
Edited by prophex, : No reason given.
Edited by prophex, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by kuresu, posted 01-21-2007 1:27 AM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by kuresu, posted 01-24-2007 3:58 PM joshua221 has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 72 (379546)
01-24-2007 3:30 PM


Alright guys.
What I have said remains it seems as a dying explanation for life and philosophy.
Of course it seems that what is "perfect" or "absolute" is only described in books by men who spent their lives on these concepts such as Plato.
Plato tried to present the answer to "What is Justice", although there are many things in his great work that I can discuss and debate with my peers, I feel that his effort was so amazing because his answer is the best explanation ever written to this day.
Books such as these (the books that really matter) all accept the ideas of objective absolutes existing. For there is no reason to think or question or wonder without acknowledging, striving, or seeking these absolutes.
It seems as if humanity has a problem as we cannot be perfect but can only provide the best answers that we can. But there is so much brilliance in this search. There is so much godliness in it.
I want to know that everyone acknowledges the existence of these absolutes.
You see, as jar was trying to point out - Many have written works with acceptance of these absolutes of course, but none could perfectly describe them and define them. For that I may admit is entirely implausible.
The point of this thread is that for one to think, and think of things that matter in life, one must accept the existence of these absolutes and seek to define them.
The cliche is to "seek the truth", but that is exactly what thinkers do, what philosophers do. This is philosophy.
Thank you very much for your responses.

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 01-24-2007 6:02 PM joshua221 has replied
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 72 (379566)
01-24-2007 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by kuresu
01-24-2007 3:58 PM


Re: The Good, The Bad, and the Indifferent
quote:
for thinking that what you listed as being "objective" or "absolutes",
when they aren't, and taking a good look at them reveals the truth of their subjectivity and relativity.
You can't understand it I think.
quote:
you also come of as immature and ignorant at times--and I know you're young to begin with.
Oh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by kuresu, posted 01-24-2007 3:58 PM kuresu has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 72 (379593)
01-24-2007 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
01-24-2007 6:02 PM


Re: Why?
quote:
Thinking about hiking the AT is not hiking the AT.
But so far everyone has told me that hiking the AT is impossible, that human beings cannot know what is truly true.
You yourself have.
If there is anything close to "hiking the AT" it is in writing a work that can be regarded as true or beautiful or amazing. A book like "Either/Or" or "The Castle", you know, you know.
quote:
Thinkers are okay, but they are pretty much useless. It is fine to think about hiking the Trail, or think about Justice, but in the end it comes down as always to doing.
Something I'm going to be thinking about for a while jar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 01-24-2007 6:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 01-24-2007 7:49 PM joshua221 has replied

  
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