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Author Topic:   -Moral Standard In All of Humanity-
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 1 of 72 (378417)
01-20-2007 3:58 PM


There exists what is truly and absolutely right and we can discern what that is, there is a standard and the standard is what is perfectly right and good. If we were unable to know what was right and good then there would be little reason for us to exist as we could not live a good life or even know what that entails, everything dealing with morality and conscience would be a subjective absurdity.

Without this "standard" so to speak, the choice between right and wrong would be subjective. So any action from murder to theft would be acceptable in this world. Nothing would matter.

We know that such a model or standard exists because we trust that God did not create some sort of silly and simple-minded game for humans to take part in.

Why is this nonsense?


Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Message 2 of 72 (378422)
01-20-2007 5:00 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5381
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 7.9


Message 3 of 72 (378440)
01-20-2007 6:08 PM


We know that such a model or standard exists because we trust that God did not create some sort of silly and simple-minded game for humans to take part in.

Why is this nonsense?

Maybe because we don't know that any gods exist. If any do, we don't know that they don't absolutely delight in making folks play silly games. Maybe because "perfectly right and good" has no meaning out here in the world, but only as a simplistic mental construct.

The choice between right and wrong has always been subjective, Prophex: it's determined by the culture one lives in. Actions that we 21st-century Americans say are deeply immoral have been perfectly moral at other times and in other places. Take slavery or the death penalty for ten-year-old pickpockets.....


Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 72 (378444)
01-20-2007 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
01-20-2007 3:58 PM


on standards of right and wrong
There exists what is truly and absolutely right and we can discern what that is, there is a standard and the standard is what is perfectly right and good.

So you assert.

But where is this absolute standard?

How does everyone discern that standard?

If we were unable to know what was right and good then there would be little reason for us to exist as we could not live a good life or even know what that entails, everything dealing with morality and conscience would be a subjective absurdity.

What does that have to do with anything? Why could we not live a good life? Morality is subjective and constantly changing.

Without this "standard" so to speak, the choice between right and wrong would be subjective. So any action from murder to theft would be acceptable in this world. Nothing would matter.

How utterly wrong can you get. If society says murder is wrong, then it is wrong. If society says theft is unacceptable, then it is unacceptable.

It really is as simple as that.

We know that such a model or standard exists because we trust that God did not create some sort of silly and simple-minded game for humans to take part in.

Nonsense. Totally unrelated and irrelevant nonsense.

First, we may believe there is a God but we do not know that.

Second, if God exists God could very well be Loki.

Third there is NO reason for any such standards. What is right and moral in one era, one milieu may well be immoral in another.

Edited by jar, : goo +d


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 276 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 5 of 72 (378459)
01-20-2007 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
01-20-2007 6:20 PM


Re: on standards of right and wrong
quote:
Why could we not live a goo life?

Yeah, why not indeed?!

I want to live a goo life!!!


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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 6 of 72 (378460)
01-20-2007 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coragyps
01-20-2007 6:08 PM


The choice between right and wrong has always been subjective, Prophex: it's determined by the culture one lives in. Actions that we 21st-century Americans say are deeply immoral have been perfectly moral at other times and in other places. Take slavery or the death penalty for ten-year-old pickpockets.....

Slavery and the death penalty have never been moral, morality was sacrificed for the benefit of selfish and stupid human beings.

Maybe because we don't know that any gods exist. If any do, we don't know that they don't absolutely delight in making folks play silly games. Maybe because "perfectly right and good" has no meaning out here in the world, but only as a simplistic mental construct.

I can prove God's existence but I understand that I cannot put evidence into God's existence without adequately proving that in the first place.

Evidence for a moral absolute is in the word that describes our human ability to discern right from wrong. Conscience.

Because humans can know what is right and what is wrong, there must be an answer for every situation and every question as to what the good is. What is good must be good for every human being or conscience has no use for us and is non-existent.

Because humans have this ability, there must be moral absolutes/standards where in which every right or good action falls. You are putting out a statement which makes the world into a place where there is no wrong action, there is nothing that one can do that is immoral if morality is subjective.


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CK
Member (Idle past 2234 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 7 of 72 (378462)
01-20-2007 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by joshua221
01-20-2007 7:10 PM


quote:
Slavery and the death penalty have never been moral

Now I'm not a follower of the christian god concept but I thought your holy book had plenty on how to regulate slavery - if it's not moral why does it give instructions on how best to do it?

(I could be wrong since it's been a while since I looked at that text).


This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 276 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 8 of 72 (378463)
01-20-2007 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by joshua221
01-20-2007 7:10 PM


quote:
Slavery and the death penalty have never been moral, morality was sacrificed for the benefit of selfish and stupid human beings.

Sure it was, and your own Bible demonstrates it to be so.

quote:
I can prove God's existence but I understand that I cannot put evidence into God's existence without adequately proving that in the first place.

This sentence doesn't make any sense.

quote:
Because humans can know what is right and what is wrong, there must be an answer for every situation and every question as to what the good is.

That doesn't follow at all.

quote:
What is good must be good for every human being or conscience has no use for us and is non-existent.

More nonsense.

quote:
Because humans have this ability, there must be moral absolutes/standards where in which every right or good action falls.

Show us.

quote:
You are putting out a statement which makes the world into a place where there is no wrong action, there is nothing that one can do that is immoral if morality is subjective.

False.

It is not that there is "no wrong action".

It's that what is considered right or wrong is not simple to figure out, no matter how hard you wish it was.


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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 72 (378466)
01-20-2007 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by joshua221
01-20-2007 7:10 PM


prophex

Because humans can know what is right and what is wrong, there must be an answer for every situation and every question as to what the good is. What is good must be good for every human being or conscience has no use for us and is non-existent.

Is it ever OK to kill someone? To steal? To bear false witness? If you think about it you will find that the situation is not always cut and dried and sometimes there is no good answer to a situation but only a lesser of two evils so to speak.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 7:10 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5381
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 7.9


Message 10 of 72 (378467)
01-20-2007 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by joshua221
01-20-2007 7:10 PM


Slavery and the death penalty have never been moral, morality was sacrificed for the benefit of selfish and stupid human beings.

You've never read the Bible at all?


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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 11 of 72 (378474)
01-20-2007 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
01-20-2007 6:20 PM


Re: on standards of right and wrong
But where is this absolute standard?

How does everyone discern that standard?

This standard is in all of us, we know what is right. Societies and individuals know that murder is wrong, they know that stealing is wrong, etc, but we can also choose to go against what we know for ourselves and our own desires.

How utterly wrong can you get. If society says murder is wrong, then it is wrong. If society says theft is unacceptable, then it is unacceptable.

So, it is "right" to murder and to steal in a society which accepts or promotes these actions as right and good actions?

First, we may believe there is a God but we do not know that.

Second, if God exists God could very well be Loki.

I must admit I have not given the thought that I need to to be saved in how we know God exists a god whatever. I have relied on the 5 proofs of Aquinas but have actually not relied on them at all as I have been virtually not thinking at all about whether God a god whatever exists. I have accepted it as something that is true through faith I guess. I feel that there is no way to go back really to think about whether a god exists when you have believed that God does exist and is a great part of your life and eventual death for so long.

I don't think the word blind could describe my faith that God exists and created me because I have the feeling that God is something so much more than thought and reason. I have began to believe that God wants to see humans think and know and do something with their lives. And I am not an irrational creature.

But I still used the line "trust the God isn't playing some sort of game" just to really throw you off and make you realize that absolute human morality exists.


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 Message 4 by jar, posted 01-20-2007 6:20 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 12 of 72 (378475)
01-20-2007 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by sidelined
01-20-2007 7:26 PM


Is it ever OK to kill someone? To steal? To bear false witness? If you think about it you will find that the situation is not always cut and dried and sometimes there is no good answer to a situation but only a lesser of two evils so to speak.

True, but to deduce the more morally "right" decision is all that we can do in situations such as these.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 72 (378476)
01-20-2007 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by joshua221
01-20-2007 7:46 PM


Re: on standards of right and wrong
So, it is "right" to murder and to steal in a society which accepts or promotes these actions as right and good actions?

Yes. It most certainly is. Read the Bible.

But I still used the line "trust the God isn't playing some sort of game" just to really throw you off and make you realize that absolute human morality exists.

Well, you failed.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 7:46 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 14 of 72 (378479)
01-20-2007 7:57 PM


We all know what is right and we all know what is wrong. Certain cases force us into deciding what the right and good is, it may be a struggle, but we can all make the right choice.
  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 72 (378481)
01-20-2007 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by joshua221
01-20-2007 7:47 PM


prophex

SO is there any guarantee that my "right" decision will be the same as yours in any given situation?


This message is a reply to:
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