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Author Topic:   -Moral Standard In All of Humanity-
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 72 (378500)
01-20-2007 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by sidelined
01-20-2007 8:08 PM


non-response
Edited by prophex, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by sidelined, posted 01-20-2007 8:08 PM sidelined has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 17 of 72 (378501)
01-20-2007 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by joshua221
01-20-2007 7:10 PM


The Good, The Bad, and the Indifferent
prophyx writes:
Because humans can know what is right and what is wrong, there must be an answer for every situation and every question as to what the good is. What is good must be good for every human being or conscience has no use for us and is non-existent.
Is music good, bad, or indifferent?
Depends upon the circumstances.
“Music is good to the melancholy, bad to those who mourn, and neither good nor bad to the deaf” - Spinoza
Your point was refuted over 300 years ago in one sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 7:10 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 11:56 PM anglagard has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 18 of 72 (378504)
01-20-2007 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by joshua221
01-20-2007 7:46 PM


Re: on standards of right and wrong
prophex writes:
So, it is "right" to murder and to steal in a society which accepts or promotes these actions as right and good actions?
Tack on the morality of rape to the that.
Let's consult the holy scripture and see....
numbers 31 writes:
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
If you are a bible believer than apparently the answer is Yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 7:46 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 11:58 PM iceage has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 72 (378507)
01-20-2007 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by anglagard
01-20-2007 10:44 PM


Re: The Good, The Bad, and the Indifferent
Music like "favorite ice cream" or "favorite color" is subjective.
Surprised at that statement, we are dealing with objectivities here.
Subjective: what is better, blue or red, chocolate or vanilla
Objective: What is right? What is Justice? How should one live? Why do I exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by anglagard, posted 01-20-2007 10:44 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by kuresu, posted 01-21-2007 1:27 AM joshua221 has replied
 Message 38 by Jaderis, posted 01-21-2007 8:19 AM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 43 by anglagard, posted 01-21-2007 4:16 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 72 (378508)
01-20-2007 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by iceage
01-20-2007 11:27 PM


Re: on standards of right and wrong
Context please.
Explain the situation you are quoting from or you have shown me nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by iceage, posted 01-20-2007 11:27 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by iceage, posted 01-21-2007 12:22 AM joshua221 has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 72 (378509)
01-21-2007 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
01-20-2007 7:51 PM


Re: on standards of right and wrong
Have you given up at the question?
So, it is "right" to murder and to steal in a society which accepts or promotes these actions as right and good actions?
I would like to see some evidence perhaps as to why it is acceptable besides "it most certainly is", otherwise it looks as if I have stumped you.
You see, there really is a "standard" that exists. We can all see it and decide what is righteous. To deny it's existence is to deny the existence of morality altogether.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 01-20-2007 7:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Neutralmind, posted 01-21-2007 4:55 AM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 39 by Jaderis, posted 01-21-2007 8:33 AM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 40 by jar, posted 01-21-2007 8:45 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 72 (378510)
01-21-2007 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by sidelined
01-20-2007 8:08 PM


Your "right" should be the same as mine as long as we are correct in our judgements and follow exacty the standard of perfection that exists. Unfortunately we are all imperfect and following this perfectly just model is often difficult.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by sidelined, posted 01-20-2007 8:08 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by sidelined, posted 01-21-2007 2:32 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 23 of 72 (378513)
01-21-2007 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by joshua221
01-20-2007 11:58 PM


Re: on standards of right and wrong
prophex writes:
Context please.
Explain the situation you are quoting from or you have shown me nothing
Are you saying that such ethics are contextual and situational dependent?
Are there relative situations and context where child rape, genocide and infanticide are OK?
So much for absolute morality

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 11:58 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by joshua221, posted 01-21-2007 12:26 AM iceage has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 72 (378515)
01-21-2007 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by iceage
01-21-2007 12:22 AM


Re: on standards of right and wrong
It may have been anything, if there isn't context then it could be anything. It could be a dream.
Just write a little about the story and what you were actually quoting so we can examine it further.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by iceage, posted 01-21-2007 12:22 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by iceage, posted 01-21-2007 1:02 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 25 of 72 (378522)
01-21-2007 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by joshua221
01-21-2007 12:26 AM


Re: on standards of right and wrong
Prophex I am confused I quoted the book of Numbers from the Bible - you are familiar with it right?
The context was war and war booty!
The events described were the norm of the day and this is exactly was god the lord (the "Lord is a man of war") commanded - if you believe in literal correctness of the bible, it is inescapable that certain ethical principles are in fact relative and contextual.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by joshua221, posted 01-21-2007 12:26 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 26 of 72 (378524)
01-21-2007 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by joshua221
01-20-2007 11:56 PM


Re: The Good, The Bad, and the Indifferent
[line]Objective[/line]Sujective: What is right? What is Justice? How should one live? Why do I exist?
What is right?
Hmm, a word, in this context, w/o a definition. What I consider to be right is probably not along the same lines of what you consider to be right. or, its a direction.
What is Justice?
To some, vengeance. You know, taking the law into your own hands and killing that **** who raped your sister. That could also be right. To others, using the court system. again, some more might have a different idea.
How should one live?
Well, you have some people who think its all about pleasuring yourself as much as possible, others who prefer quality pleasure, still more who think it should be an ascetic life, and to others still it should be about dieing for your country.
Why do I exist?
most people don't have an answer. A lot think it is to be of service to their god. Me? to go as far as I can.
All these questions you deemed objective are subjective. tough luck kiddo.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 11:56 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 01-21-2007 2:04 AM kuresu has replied
 Message 55 by joshua221, posted 01-24-2007 3:10 PM kuresu has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 72 (378531)
01-21-2007 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by joshua221
01-20-2007 7:10 PM


Proving God to ourselves and others
Prophex writes:
I can prove God's existence but I understand that I cannot put evidence into God's existence without adequately proving that in the first place.
I can prove Gods existence to my own satisfaction.
Websters writes:
prove-vb proved; proved or proven \pru-ven\; proving 1 : to test by experiment or by a standard 2 : to establish the truth of by argument or evidence 3 : to show to be correct, valid, or genuine 4 : to turn out esp. after trial or test provable \pru-ve-bel\ adj
My proof is only within my mind and heart. To attempt a logical construct of my proof for others is not possible unless they know me personally. If they get to know and trust me personally...way beyond the level of relationship that we can have in a classroom or a forum...then I believe that God could be proven (by working through me) You can prove God to Messenjah because you know him so well. You would not be the arbitrator over whether Messenjah accepted the proof or not, however. It would be up to Messenjah to accept or reject the proof as you presented it to him. You could not prove God to anyone in this forum through the use of words, concepts, scriptures, or logic in any way. We do not have enough of a connection with you for God to use you to convey the proof.
Some would even challenge my assertion that God exists ...but lets get back to your topic.
Prophex writes:
Evidence for a moral absolute is in the word that describes our human ability to discern right from wrong. Conscience.
Yes, you have found the source within yourself that proves God to you. (and convicts you of specific absolutes) yet you cannot explain this proof to others through verbal effort. You could only prove it through a direct contact with our individual consciences, which is not easily done on the internet.
(

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by joshua221, posted 01-20-2007 7:10 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 72 (378532)
01-21-2007 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by kuresu
01-21-2007 1:27 AM


Re: The Good, The Bad, and the Indifferent
kuresu writes:
Why do I exist?
most people don't have an answer. A lot think it is to be of service to their god. Me? to go as far as I can.
And how do you define far? Far from what?
Closer to what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by kuresu, posted 01-21-2007 1:27 AM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by kuresu, posted 01-21-2007 2:08 AM Phat has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 29 of 72 (378534)
01-21-2007 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
01-21-2007 2:04 AM


Re: The Good, The Bad, and the Indifferent
not distance, dope!
we've all travelled hundreds of thousands of hundreds of miles in our lives.
you know the phrase "shoot for the stars"? that kind of thing. I'm not content with getting just a Ph.D. But it's deeper than that. I can't really formulate it into words and do it justice as of now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 01-21-2007 2:04 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 01-21-2007 2:32 AM kuresu has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 30 of 72 (378544)
01-21-2007 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by joshua221
01-21-2007 12:03 AM


prophex
Your "right" should be the same as mine as long as we are correct in our judgements and follow exacty the standard of perfection that exists
So what exactly is the standard of perfection and who says so?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by joshua221, posted 01-21-2007 12:03 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
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