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Author
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Topic: Human quadrupeds discovered in Turkey
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1009 days) Posts: 1497 From: Nevada Joined: 03-23-2003
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Message 1 of 14 (292950)
03-07-2006 11:48 AM
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Whoa.
Human quadrupeds discovered in Turkey Tue Mar 7, 7:56 AM ET LONDON (AFP) - The discovery of a Turkish family that walks on all fours could aid research into the evolution of humans. Researchers believe the five brothers and sisters, who can walk naturally only on all fours, may provide new information on how humans evolved from four-legged hominids to walk upright. Nicholas Humphrey, evolutionary psychologist at the London School of Economics, told The Times the discovery opened "an extraordinary window on our past". "I do not think they were designed to be quadrupeds by their genes, but their unique genetic make-up allowed them to be," he said. "It has produced an extraordinary window on our past. It is physically possible, which noone would have guessed from the [modern] human skeleton." The siblings, the subject of a new BBC documentary to be aired on March 17, suffer from a genetic abnormality that may prevent them from walking upright. Instead, they use their palms like heels with their fingers sticking up from the ground. The BBC said the documentary would contribute to fierce scientific debate and raised profound questions about what it is to be human. Humphrey, who has contributed to the documentary, believes the style of walking may be a throwback to a form of behaviour abandoned by humans more than three million years ago. Two sisters and one son have only ever walked on two hands and two feet, while another daughter and son occasionally walk on two feet. All five are mentally retarded and have problems with language as a result of a form of underdevelopment of the brain known as cerebellar ataxia. However Humphrey told the Times their behaviour may be partly the result of their parents tolerating the behaviour in childhood. They are aged between 18 and 34 and live in southern Turkey, athough the makers of the documentary have not disclosed their exact location. "They walk like animals and that's very disturbing at first. But we were also very moved by this family's tremendous warmth and humanity," Jemima Harrison of Passionate Productions told the Times.
[SOURCE]
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JustinC
Member (Idle past 4864 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: 07-21-2003
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Message 2 of 14 (292983)
03-07-2006 1:36 PM
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I really don't think there is good evidence that this is "reverse" evolution and I don't know why a reputable scientist like Humphrey's is implying such a thing. They walk in the same manner as some infants do, called the bear-crawl. This is when they crawl using their feet instead of their knees. All the children in the family crawled this way when they were younger. They quadrupeds also have cerebellum problems which result in ataxia. Isn't it more logical that they just felt more comfortable with the bear-crawl due to their ataxia and that the family environment was conducive to them maintaining it? There's no significant morphological differences between the quadrupeds and us bipeds, correct? I think there needs to be more research done before someone can say that this can shed light on human evolution.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 3 by roxrkool, posted 03-07-2006 2:04 PM | | JustinC has not replied | | | Message 4 by rgb, posted 03-07-2006 4:40 PM | | JustinC has replied |
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1009 days) Posts: 1497 From: Nevada Joined: 03-23-2003
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Message 3 of 14 (293004)
03-07-2006 2:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 2 by JustinC
03-07-2006 1:36 PM
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I agree. It is way too early to suggest this is evidence of any sort of evolution and that this is likely the result of a brain disorder. Interesting, though.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by JustinC, posted 03-07-2006 1:36 PM | | JustinC has not replied |
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rgb
Inactive Member
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Message 4 of 14 (293063)
03-07-2006 4:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 2 by JustinC
03-07-2006 1:36 PM
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JustinC
quote:
I really don't think there is good evidence that this is "reverse" evolution and I don't know why a reputable scientist like Humphrey's is implying such a thing.
Having been misquoted by the media more than once, I can tell you that such a news source can most of the time less than reliable on accurate information. More often than not, they like to exaggerate things a little by implying beyond what is there. The article said:
quote:
Uner Tan, a professor of physiology at Cukurova University in Adana, Turkey, who first brought the family to the attention of scientists, argues that the gene mutations have made them regress to a “missing link” primate state, also explaining their severe problems with language. A team of German geneticists believes that the family holds the key to a breakthrough gene for bipedality.
While professor Tan may have said something similar, I doubt that that is what he was trying to say. Tan might have suggested that mutations may have caused the individuals to behave like what we suspect to be human ancestors. Also, he might have suggested that mutations may have caused reactivation of long thought to be dead genes. He might even have suggested that mutations may have taken away certain genetic characteristics that make up a modern human. But the way the paragraph was written, the reporter seems to imply that this is some kind of reverse evolution taking place. Especially the following paragraph:
quote:
Nicholas Humphrey, evolutionary psychologist at the London School of Economics, who has visited the family, said that the siblings appeared to have reverted to an instinctive form of behaviour encoded deep in the brain, but abandoned in the course of evolution.
I honestly don't think Humphrey really meant what the article implies. The point is this article is still too vague for us to draw any kind of specific conclusion on what the scientists really think. What we have is an article written by a reporter who writes sensational news for a living.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by JustinC, posted 03-07-2006 1:36 PM | | JustinC has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 5 by JustinC, posted 03-07-2006 6:04 PM | | rgb has not replied | | | Message 6 by JustinC, posted 03-07-2006 6:07 PM | | rgb has not replied |
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JustinC
Member (Idle past 4864 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: 07-21-2003
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Message 5 of 14 (293084)
03-07-2006 6:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by rgb
03-07-2006 4:40 PM
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Very true. It seems like he was saying something a lot less extravagent in Human Hand Walkers: Five Siblings Who Never Stood Up
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by rgb, posted 03-07-2006 4:40 PM | | rgb has not replied |
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JustinC
Member (Idle past 4864 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: 07-21-2003
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Message 6 of 14 (293086)
03-07-2006 6:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by rgb
03-07-2006 4:40 PM
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quote:
Also, he might have suggested that mutations may have caused reactivation of long thought to be dead genes
This is what I meant by term "reverse" evolution. I don't really like the term, but it does seem to have some utility when describing this type of phenomena.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by rgb, posted 03-07-2006 4:40 PM | | rgb has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 7 of 14 (293121)
03-07-2006 10:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by roxrkool
03-07-2006 11:48 AM
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quote:
"It has produced an extraordinary window on our past. It is physically possible, which noone would have guessed from the [modern] human skeleton."
the tool fans on this board are not suprised. tool toured with the contortionist group "osseus labyrint" for a while, and they were featured in one of the music videos... ... walking on all fours, in much the same manner. only on tip-toes and finger tips. although these guys look like they walk much like baboons do. i doubt it's an "evolutionary throwback," personally. it's a behaviour. and it can be learned, and practiced by normal average human beings, with a lot of stretching. This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 03-07-2006 10:33 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by roxrkool, posted 03-07-2006 11:48 AM | | roxrkool has not replied |
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DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6458 days) Posts: 158 Joined: 01-16-2006
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... walking on all fours, in much the same manner. only on tip-toes and finger tips. although these guys look like they walk much like baboons do. i doubt it's an "evolutionary throwback," personally. it's a behaviour. and it can be learned, and practiced by normal average human beings, with a lot of stretching.
Intoxication can produce similar results.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Intoxication can produce similar results. i doubt it -- it's a very specific position. most people cannot put their hands and feet flat on the floor at same time, with both arm and legs extended. the ligaments and whatnot have to be really stretched out.
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DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6458 days) Posts: 158 Joined: 01-16-2006
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Similar results
I said the results could be similar, not identical. There's some leeway there.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by arachnophilia, posted 03-12-2006 12:04 AM | | arachnophilia has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 11 of 14 (363140)
11-10-2006 8:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by roxrkool
03-07-2006 11:48 AM
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on the other ... hand?
also in answer to PNT Handwalkers -devolution, God has a sense of humor? Monkey apes humans by walking on two legsquote:
A young monkey at an Israeli zoo has started walking on its hind legs only ” aping humans ” after a near death experience, the zoo's veterinarian said Wednesday.
There could be behavioral reasons for taking an upright stance that is then passed down via cultural learning rather than an evolutionary mutation event. It's just a matter of perspective? Enjoy.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by roxrkool, posted 03-07-2006 11:48 AM | | roxrkool has not replied |
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JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2339 days) Posts: 475 From: York, England Joined: 08-05-2005
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Message 12 of 14 (363219)
11-11-2006 12:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by roxrkool
03-07-2006 11:48 AM
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The BBC Documentary
I saw the BBC documentary mentioned in this article. It was clear from the documentary that the children had just never been encouraged to walk upright (they were all mentally retarded). The intervention of a physiotherapist very soon had them beginning to walk upright. The documentary itself is very moving. You actually end up being appalled by most of the scientists, who all seem much too easily seduced by the notion of evolutionary throwbacks. When you see the brothers and sisters walking it's pretty obvious, even to a layman, that they're normal bipedal humans crawling on all fours rather than some strange throwbacks with a quadrupedal action.
'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by roxrkool, posted 03-07-2006 11:48 AM | | roxrkool has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 13 by Chiroptera, posted 11-11-2006 1:07 PM | | JavaMan has not replied |
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Message 13 of 14 (363222)
11-11-2006 1:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 12 by JavaMan
11-11-2006 12:58 PM
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Re: The BBC Documentary
Don't show this to the evo-psych people. I'd hate to have to see them try to spin why there is a gene that makes people want to have sex with certain other people but there is no gene that makes people perform the most basic of human activities.
Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by JavaMan, posted 11-11-2006 12:58 PM | | JavaMan has not replied |
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4919 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 14 of 14 (378555)
01-21-2007 3:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by roxrkool
03-07-2006 11:48 AM
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genetic abnormalities
This somehow relates to evolution. Let's see. If someone is allergic to fruit, are we going to say that this is indicative of hominids evolution when people moved from eating berries and fruit to becoming meat heaters? More stretching way past what the data is, and evo reliance on imagination....edit to add, glad to see some evos here seem to agree in this instance that this really doesn't relate to evolution. Edited by randman, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by roxrkool, posted 03-07-2006 11:48 AM | | roxrkool has not replied |
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