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Author Topic:   Black Rednecks and White Liberals (by Thomas Sowell)
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 57 of 130 (377964)
01-19-2007 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Hyroglyphx
01-17-2007 2:18 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
NJ writes:
Buying rims when you're dirt poor instead of paying your bills and taking care of business is just stupid, to put it as bluntly as I can. Obviously, not everyone that owns rims is poor. Its not about the rims, its about how a mentality that compels people to make a bad choice.
I had stated in chat that I wouldn't comment in this thread until I read the book (it arrived today and will read it this weekend), but have to comment because this has been on my mind since it was posted.
First, I agree with you (and other posters) that it is not infrequent to see people (of any race) spending money on pop items that are or seem frivolous to the outside. What I think is missed is the context. Keeping up with the Joneses is not just a middle class concept. If a poor black man buys expensive rims, or a poor white man buys a 52" television, or whatever it is not some out of context stupid decision (although from outside I think it is a stupid decision). They are buying status (or what they believe to be status) within their circle of friends. It might be poor decision making (I agree) but it isn't because of race or social class.
I grew up in Washington State. And I know many people who could barely (or not) make their rent, bills, etc. but who had bigass trucks they would lose in a few months. But while they had them they were the man. Sure it was stupid. (but ultimately who was the beneficiary? Couldn't be the car dealership...)
This transcends economic levels. What is the difference between that and a fly by night actress you see with a $24,000 dress for the Oscars? I several weeks ago listened to a teenager explaining why his Alienware laptop was worth the extra grand because (and he admitted ONLY because) it was Alienware and his friends couldn't afford them.
I see a direct relationship to all of the above with chimps who catch a bushbuck and choose to share it with their peers (the norm) or use it to try to elevate their status. Some chimps catch an animal and enjoy the short-lived high status they have among over low ranking chimps. Others use it as a way to elevate their status. Most humans (of any class) use their resources to enjoy short-lived status with other humans, others find ways to elevate their status. But as Jar said, I am a Darwinist

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-17-2007 2:18 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-19-2007 10:58 PM Lithodid-Man has replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 77 of 130 (378311)
01-20-2007 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Hyroglyphx
01-19-2007 10:58 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
NJ,
Finished the "Black Rednecks White Liberals" essay of the book, will attempt to stomach the rest tomorrow.
Sorry, was not impressed. First it mainly relied on anectdote. Cite an 18th Century British writer on how Scots are shiftless and lazy. Cite a northern US scholar on how southerners are shiftless and lazy. Then cite anectdotes describing modern urban blacks as shiftless and lazy. So the same term was used therefore there is a connection?
I am going to argue that a snobbish opinion on any race on any continent at any time is going to use similar terms. And more often than not Sowell's common terms will be part of it. Disregard for life, laziness, unwillingness to learn, quickness to insult, etc. All of it he uses can be found across social classes and cultures world-wide.
What Sowell fails to do is to make actual connections between the cultures he describes. That someone describes each of those cultures in the same terminology doesn't cut it. One could easily describe traditional western Native culture from a description from the 18th century and a modern analysis of reservations and say "See, they were always frivolous and simple" See the connection?
I am big on citations. And one thing I noticed is that Sowell relies heavily on them (nothing bad about that, we call it metanalysis in science) but a good number of his supposed hard numbers are his own publications. This is problematic. There is nothing wrong with citing yourself. But citing yourself from pubs where you (possibly?) cite others research is academically bad news. Cite yourself where you came up with original information, to cite yourself where you cite another statistic is at best academically sloppy and possibly indicative of fraud.
So, I see many of Sowell's points. I am not throwing out any babies with bathwater. No one can deny that African-Americans are in a bad situation overall in America. And I also believe that some black Americans are perpetuating this downfall by playing into white stereotypes. Upper middle class born gangster rappers certainly should look at themselves in shame for what they helped create. (Not to in any way release the guilt of major record label producers). And not to knock hip-hop or rap as well, merely those who chose to use it as a tool to perpetuate hate for bucks. (btw I am a huge Michael Franti fan, Beatnigs, Disposable Heroes of the HipHopcrisy, Spearhead).
I just realized it is 3:00 AM here. Although friday, it is late. I will respond to your points on this portion of the post before my other problems with Sowell's first essay.

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-19-2007 10:58 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2007 1:00 PM Lithodid-Man has replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 97 of 130 (378568)
01-21-2007 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Hyroglyphx
01-20-2007 1:00 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
NJ,
I did not think that Sowell was totally off-base in all of his arguments. He is a very good writer and made points that I hope black Americans take to heart. But what he failed to do is support his contention that poor Scottish culture led to modern poor black ghetto culture.
The operative word was 'poor'. Disadvantaged people worldwide tend to behave in very predictable ways. Last year when we were in Thailand I heard from educated Thais that the people from the Northern provinces were so lazy that it was better to hire workers from Myanmar or Malaysia. Northern Thais were described as lazy, prone to drink, never make work schedules, etc. Northern Thai women were 'loose, prone to whoredom' etc. Sound familiar?
Sowell never sucessfully ties together his points yet assumes they are tied. And even if true, if he is 100% right, his point is still mute. So what if modern black ghetto culture is derived from Scottish Highlanders. Does that justify the disparity in education? Of call backs for jobs? Please try to see this point.
If anything else please acknowledge your bigotry. Like twelve step it is the first step. I am a bigot, I try not to be. When I meet people of different race, religions, or other ethnicities I often form immediate opinions that I strive to eliminate (remember Hans and Frans from SNL? Pummela Pummela Pummela). I do this because I know it is wrong to be a bigot. Because of this I question all of my assumptions and reconsider all of my thoughts before drawing conclusions.

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2007 1:00 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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