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Author Topic:   Discrimination against homosexuals carried into the 21st century
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 121 of 313 (378541)
01-21-2007 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Rob
01-21-2007 2:16 AM


Re: oh boy, here we go again
you still missed it.
I determine my own, my own right and wrong. I don't base it off of what everyone else is doing. I don't base it off of what I'm told to do. you know that question "if everyone did it, would the world work?". If everyone killed who they thought to be undesirables, the world would be dead. then, murder itself is just plain wrong.
murder is wrong, period. What would be interesting, is to see just how many germans from the time actually supported the wholesale murder that was the holocaust. I want to wager not many. Even Hitler didn't start the murder (at massscale) until about 1943. Why? He started to lose the war in russia. and if he lost, he'd never be able to eliminate the jews. a slave is more valuable alive than dead--they can still do work.
so why do I need a reason other than, "it's the .... thing to do"?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 2:16 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 10:52 AM kuresu has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 122 of 313 (378570)
01-21-2007 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Rob
01-20-2007 6:52 PM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
Rob writes:
If there is no eternal Justice (or being) to fear, then there is no reason to expect a Hitler or a Stalin to moderate their position. There is no reason for them to do what is 'right', since right becomes what ever benefits the individual and their desires.
I have no internal concept of eternal justice and very little appreciation of guilt, and yet I have a perfectly good moral compass. I don't think I'm particularly unique in this. The reason that many people do good is because they were rewarded for 'doing good' in their formative years. This leads to an internal reward for such action that is completly divirced from religious concepts.
Do you know anything about psychology? This is basic stuff.
Rob writes:
Well, you're the one who justifies Nazism (by implication) by agreeing with the social darwinism that Hitler explained quite matter-of-factly in his manifesto, 'Mein Kampf'.
What you say here is insulting bullshit. Shame on you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Rob, posted 01-20-2007 6:52 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 11:07 AM Larni has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 123 of 313 (378572)
01-21-2007 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Rob
01-21-2007 1:20 AM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
Rob writes:
In fact, I impied that you are ignorant of the logical extensions of your own thinking. You're a puppet of philosophy that is beyond your current capacity to analyze objectively. You are too caught up emotionally and attached to your worldview to see it clearly.
More insulting bullshit, Rob?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 1:20 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 10:55 AM Larni has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 124 of 313 (378601)
01-21-2007 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by kuresu
01-21-2007 2:24 AM


Re: oh boy, here we go again
I determine my own, my own right and wrong
No Kuresu, you are the one who missed it. You determined nothing. You own nothing. You have no right. And you are wrong.
You don't own the power to choose. Everything was given to you. If you claim it as your own, you will become a devil.
You are not God. Not even of your own life. You are dependant. You are utterly dependant... upon the laws of physics; energy, and matter... and upon the moral law; information and reason itself.
God has already thought of everything. What do you bring to the table that is new. You depend upon Kant? What new wisdom did you find in your youth? Only the same old beaten path...
Dependant you came, and dependant you will leave. Energy can neither be created nor desroyed I'm afraid. 'There is nothing new under the sun'. It's only new to you...
Job 13:6 Hear now my argument; listen to the plea of my lips. 7 Will you speak wickedly on God's behalf? Will you speak deceitfully for him? 8 Will you show him partiality? Will you argue the case for God? 9 Would it turn out well if he examined you? Could you deceive him as you might deceive men? 10 He would surely rebuke you if you secretly showed partiality. 11 Would not his splendor terrify you? Would not the dread of him fall on you? 12 Your maxims are proverbs of ashes; your defenses are defenses of clay.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by kuresu, posted 01-21-2007 2:24 AM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 01-21-2007 11:45 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 125 of 313 (378602)
01-21-2007 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Larni
01-21-2007 7:30 AM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
More insulting bullshit, Rob?
Yes, to some the truth is offensive, because they are self-righteous.
Luke 11:45 One of the experts in the law answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also." 46 Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Larni, posted 01-21-2007 7:30 AM Larni has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 126 of 313 (378606)
01-21-2007 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Larni
01-21-2007 7:27 AM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
Do you know anything about psychology? This is basic stuff.
I know some. I know what Hobart Mowrer concluded. Mowrer, the one time president of the American psychological association. Proffessor at Harvard and other leading institutions.
"For several decades we psychologists looked upon the whole matter of sin and moral accountability as a great incubus and acclaimed our liberation from it as epoch making. But at length we have discovered that to be free in this sense, that is, to have the excuse of being sick rather than sinful, is to court the danger of also becoming lost . In becoming amoral, ethically neutral and free, we have cut the very roots of our being, lost our deepest sense of selfhood and identity, and with neurotics, themselves, we find ourselves asking: Who am I, what is my deepest destiny, what does living mean?"
(Hobart Mowrer, "Sin, the Lesser of Two Evils," American Psychologist, 15 (1960): 301-304.)
Mowrer said he received more angry email from fellow psychologists than on any other piece he had written. He commited suicide at the age of 72 if my memory serves me.
I understand his lonelyness in this world gone mad. Psychology is bankrupt spiritually and underestimates our wounds.
Jeremiah 6:14 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. 'Peace, peace,' they say, when there is no peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Larni, posted 01-21-2007 7:27 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Fosdick, posted 01-21-2007 11:25 AM Rob has replied
 Message 135 by Larni, posted 01-21-2007 12:39 PM Rob has replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 127 of 313 (378612)
01-21-2007 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Rob
01-21-2007 11:07 AM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
And then there was the "King of Peace" who said in Matthew 10:34-36:
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 11:07 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 11:47 AM Fosdick has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 128 of 313 (378616)
01-21-2007 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Rob
01-21-2007 10:52 AM


right and wrong.
No Kuresu, you are the one who missed it. You determined nothing. You own nothing. You have no right. And you are wrong.
You don't own the power to choose. Everything was given to you. If you claim it as your own, you will become a devil.
I'm sorry but that is not just bullshit, it is also refuted by the Bible. Man was given the capability of knowing right from wrong. All mankind, not just Christians, and regardless of whether or not they believe in God. All that was given was the capability to make choices, and the charge to try to choose wisely.
Those capabilities and that responsibility ARE your own. You own them.
You are not God. Not even of your own life. You are dependant. You are utterly dependant... upon the laws of physics; energy, and matter... and upon the moral law; information and reason itself.
More pea hiding shell games. You create yet another false dichotomy and an attempt to conflate reality with fantasy. While the laws of physics certainly do apply, there is no evidence of anything like a moral law.
Morality is a learned behavior. It is like all knowledge, based on the experiences of those who lived before us. It is changeable and mutable and like knowledge, evolves over time.
Morality is always simply a matter of choice. It is trying to do what is right in a given situation. It is an action and responsibility of the individual.
The rest of the post is just some more blather and jabberwocky.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 10:52 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 11:53 AM jar has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 129 of 313 (378617)
01-21-2007 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Fosdick
01-21-2007 11:25 AM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
And then there was the "King of Peace" who said in Matthew 10:34-36:
Very good... What a hoot! I'd like to share a clip from my own thinking on the quantum, and it's relation to logic.
I believe that is why C.S. Lewis wrote the following:
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ”I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic”on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg”or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
The monistic worldview is nothing more than an attempt to escape from individual responsibility and the only way to maintain such a position consistently, albeit an obstinate and rebellious posture, is to declare 'one’s self' as God. For most monists, it is far less confrontational to speak without such clarity. They like to avoid the necessity and inevitability of the conflict. The monist prefers to say that we are evolving into the divine. But by implication this is a theology of default divinity be it evolving or not. As in the disagreement over Jesus Christ’s claims, this claim is either the greatest blasphemy, or the greatest truth. The stakes are enormous.
Since much of the quantum’s incredible properties involve light and the difficulty of putting a finger on its true nature, it is exceptionally noteworthy that Jesus said the following: 'I am the light of the world' (John 9; 5) ”I have come into the world as a light’ (John 12; 46). ”This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God (John 3; 19).
You can read the whole piece here if you wish: http://EvC Forum: Must religion be logical? -->EvC Forum: Must religion be logical?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Fosdick, posted 01-21-2007 11:25 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Fosdick, posted 01-21-2007 11:52 AM Rob has replied
 Message 137 by Larni, posted 01-21-2007 12:44 PM Rob has replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 130 of 313 (378618)
01-21-2007 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Rob
01-21-2007 11:47 AM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
Jesus was a photon?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 11:47 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 11:58 AM Fosdick has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 131 of 313 (378619)
01-21-2007 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by jar
01-21-2007 11:45 AM


Re: right and wrong.
I'm sorry but that is not just bullshit
I didn't say it was. You are the one who uses such language in light of lacking intelligence.
You are the one who continues to misrepresent and label...
For the 1,817th time you said:
The rest of the post is just some more blather and jabberwocky.
Why the Admins tolerate your insolence and non-arguments is one of the great 'mysteries of confounded Babylon'.
I will no longer respond to any of your posts. And I would appriciate it if you would refrain from muddying the waters of crystal clear reason.
Re 15:2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 01-21-2007 11:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 01-21-2007 12:14 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 132 of 313 (378621)
01-21-2007 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Fosdick
01-21-2007 11:52 AM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
Jesus was a photon?
No, not was...
In a sense He is a photon (the photon); the morning star!
But only in terms of truth, and truth's uncanny characteristics shared only with light.
You see? The heavens declare His glory. The physical world is a reflection of his spiritual reality. It is amazing!
Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Fosdick, posted 01-21-2007 11:52 AM Fosdick has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 133 of 313 (378625)
01-21-2007 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Rob
01-21-2007 11:53 AM


Re: right and wrong.
I'm sorry if you are upset by others pointing out what absolute utter off topic nonsense you post. You are free of course to not respond to any of my posts.
However, in Message 128 I not only declared that your post was simply bullshit, I pointed out why.
First, the topic of the thread is "Discrimination against homosexuals carried into the 21st century".
Nothing in your post, or most any of your posts in the thread, has been on topic. Instead you wander off into your fantasyland asserting stuff like moral law and equating it to the laws of physics.
Frankly, that is simply conflating concepts, and an attempt to misdirect folks attention in the hope that they do not notice you are failing to address the topic or respond to challenges.
Further, you dishonestly quotemine part of a sentence to misrepresent what I actually said.
What I actually said was "I'm sorry but that is not just bullshit, it is also refuted by the Bible. "
I went on to explain in depth:
Man was given the capability of knowing right from wrong. All mankind, not just Christians, and regardless of whether or not they believe in God. All that was given was the capability to make choices, and the charge to try to choose wisely.
Those capabilities and that responsibility ARE your own. You own them.
You took only part of the sentence ...
I'm sorry but that is not just bullshit
and without even showing that it was incomplete, or linking to the whole sentence, went on to personally challenge my intellegence.
In case you have forgotten, the topic is "Discrimination against homosexuals carried into the 21st century".
Discrimination is a fact. It is also the topic. So far you have presented no valid reasons why such discrimination should be tolerated other than the fact that you consider homosexuality to be a sin.
As has been pointed out to to many times, other folks sins are none of your business.
If you wish to show cause for continued discrimination, please make your best defense of case for discrimination against homosexuals.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 11:53 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 12:25 PM jar has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 134 of 313 (378628)
01-21-2007 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by jar
01-21-2007 12:14 PM


Re: right and wrong.
hat I actually said was "I'm sorry but that is not just bullshit, it is also refuted by the Bible. "
I went on to explain in depth:
Man was given the capability of knowing right from wrong. All mankind, not just Christians, and regardless of whether or not they believe in God. All that was given was the capability to make choices, and the charge to try to choose wisely.
Those capabilities and that responsibility ARE your own. You own them.
This the Bible doesn't say that at all jar... you say that!
The Bible makes it plain that we were not to have such knowledge. We took it and claimed it as our own.
That's it! The bible says what it says. If you don't agree with it fine. But you didn't write it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 01-21-2007 12:14 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 01-21-2007 12:42 PM Rob has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 135 of 313 (378631)
01-21-2007 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Rob
01-21-2007 11:07 AM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
Psychology has come a long way in 40 years, Rob.
What you may know of as the frustration-agression hypothesis was old before I was born. It has long since been eclipsed by behaviourism and the cognitive behaviourism.
If you know anything about Mower's work you will know that it was derived from a deep disaffection with Freud's work (which all evidence based psychologists- including myself dismiss as arch bollocks) and his own personal "season in Hell" where he suffered multiple depressive episodes.
This, coupled with the fact that his 'Integrity theory' is not used as a frame work for psychological interventions (here in the UK- where the rules of the nhs dictate that an intervention must have evidence of efficacy before it is used) cuases me to wonder what point you are trying to make here.
This is what guilt is:
I do not deserve to be happy.
I am responsible for my family's (spouse's) happiness.
There is only one 'right' way to do things.
It's bad to feel hurt and pain.
My children should never suffer in their childhood like I did in mine.
My kids should have more material things than I did.
It is my fault if others in my life are not happy.
If my kids fail in any way, it's my responsibility.
It is wrong to be concerned about myself.
People are constantly judging me, and their judgment is important to me.
It is important to save face with others.
It is wrong to accept the negative aspects of my life without believing that I am responsible for them myself.
I am responsible if either positive or negative events happen to the members of my family.
I must not enjoy myself during a time when others expect me to be in mourning, grief, or loss.
You must never let down your guard; something you're doing could be evil or wrong.
I must always be responsible, conscientious, and giving to others.
How others perceive me is important as to how I perceive myself.
No matter what I do, I am always wrong.
I should never feel guilt.
If you feel guilt, then you must be or have been wrong.
Pay close attention to the one in bold face. You appear to be maintaing a sense of guilt by your beliefs.
Why pedle such poison?
These modes of thinking (schema) are learnt as we develope. I'v lost count of how many deeply religious people cannot function effectively because of their ingrained (learnt via the gift of a brance of zianity) -Pope I'm looking at you!
Being told there is 'eternal Justice' fucks people up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 11:07 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Rob, posted 01-21-2007 1:27 PM Larni has replied

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