There you Go,YECs...biblical "evidence" of "flat earth beliefs"

We know that they beleived the world to be flat, but these statements are not statements which are set for exchanging those beliefs. They are not expressing their belief in a flat earth any more than a person of modern times is expressing a belief in a flat Earth if they were to use such a statement.A more clear reference to the flat-Earth belief of the time will have to be given if you are to convince even an anti-Bible person that the Bible teaches such concepts.J0N

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A more clear reference to the flat-Earth belief of the time will have to be given if you are to convince even an anti-Bible person that the Bible teaches such concepts.

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I doubt that, Jon, since most "anti-Bible persons" don't hold the Bible to be inerrant by default and so require proof that the writers didn't conform to the usual beliefs in that time and place.

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But government...is not simply the way we express ourselves collectively but also often the only way we preserve our freedom from private power and its incursions. -- Bill Moyers (quoting John Schwarz)

I was a Christian, and never believed in the concept of the Trinity. I always used to believe, and was taught, that Jesus was God's son (kinda like a demi-god), and not God in human form. My church took that passage figuratively, and the Father-Son verses literally (rather than the other way around, or both literally).There is still debate in the world of Christianity on what is literal and what is figurative in the bible. So, even if the Bible is infallible, fallible human reasoning is being applied to its interpretation.Just as we can see in this debate - the Bible would change its meaning for different readers, depending on whether they had flat-earth beliefs or not.Edited by Doddy Curumehtar, : Brought thread closer to main topic

Hello Ludvan, long time no see.We are handicapped in our understanding of the Bible because we read it in English, and during the Space Age.Our ancient friends did not imagine the universe as we do, and few of us have learned to imagine it as they did. Not that everyone should dumb down to that extent but I think it is important to do so if one intends to understand the words they used to describe the universe they imagined. Because virtually all English translations follow in the tradition of the KJV (AV) with regard to rendering of the Hebrew cosmological narrative, we remain stuck with a 16th century lingo encumbered with 20th century definitions and none of it speaking to the limitations of the underlying Bronze Age terminology.It is interesting to note that the first 1500 years of recorded astronomical observation and cosmological speculation yielded no published consideration of global theory: the idea that Earth and Sea are a unit and wrapped around a giant ball. Then, around 600 BC controversial papers on the subject began to be published by the think tanks of Grecia. Thus global theory was born. But then you probably already knew that, eh?What you may not know already is that biblical authors, at least those who wrote before the time of Aristotle, seem to be unaware, unconvinced, or opposed to the notion that the erets (land, country, ground) should by definition include the yam (sea) and all that wrapped around a humongous ball. They had never written of erets that way before and were apparently not particularly interested in writing about it that way now. The concept was foreign to their vocabulary. How were they to describe an erets which included all the lands and all the seas known to man. It might help to have a new word. But the evolution of the science outpaced the evolution of the language. And shortly after global theory was put into print, the Hebrew language itself became extinct. It blended with the language of Chaldea and Assyria, the major forces of the land of Aram. Today we call that language (now dead itself) Aramaic.I have selected a few verses which you might find interesting in this connection.

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"... they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth." Job 37:12

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Just so you know: the word 'world' is given for the Hebrew tebel "moist" (Strong's #8398) which has its root in yabal "flow" (#2986) see also yabal "stream" (#2988) i.e. running water. The sort of thing which makes a place habitable. By some coincidence, tebel just happens to be defined as: "habitable earth" (Young).

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"His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled." Psa 97:4

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"world" is given for tebel
"earth" is given for eretsOne more for now:

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"... I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field and to the fowls of the heaven." Eze 29:5

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Where "field" is given for erets.There is more but it is late, I am tired.So, until next time ...

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

I guess by anti-Bible person I meant someone who argues against the truth of the Bible with someone who firmly believes it. A lot of things in the Bible can be used to show that it is not an overly reliable source (most especially for science information), but there is no indication that these passages speak to a lack of understanding by the ancients.Even though they DID think the Earth was flat, these statements do not show that, nor do they convince me that God was teaching people the world was flat.J0N

Are you suggesting that anyone other than a jungle person would realistically believe the world to be flat?J0NEdited by Jon, : Fixed word choice.

Don't you agree? You probably won't find to many flat-earthers today with the penetration scientific knowledge has, but in history there certainly were civilised people who believed in a flat earth. You said it yourself: Which is why I used the word 'had' in my post. A person from yore with flat-earth beliefs would have taken those verses the OP mentions as proof positive, whereas today those verses are figurative; it has changed meaning.Edited by Doddy Curumehtar, : fixed spellign

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"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer

The problem is that these passages say nothing that would indicate a flat Earth.Imagine living in a hole your entire life. You come out one day, and there in front of the hole is a copy of the Bible; you flip through it. Seeing a couple verses highlighted, you stop, you read them, you consider them.Knowing nothing about anything, would you draw the conclusion from those few verses that the Earth is flat? Perhaps that the Earth does not move, even that it comes to an end somewhere (maybe like an arch), or you might assume it is flat. That you can interpret the statement "end of the Earth" in many ways should be proof that its meaning is NOT intended to show the Earth as flat. Then again, the writers of the Bible had a habbit of beating around the bush.Was this written in Hebrew? I believe Earth, land, country, etc. all use the same word. Perhaps this really means "end of the land." And in past times, even when it was believed the Earth to be spherical, many people in the area believed there to be land on only one side of it.Arach? Perhaps you could add something to this What is the original Hebrew of this text saying?J0N

It's really very simple. The Bible is describing the scene from the point of view of someone on earth. If you were standing on earth, the sun would be moving relative to your position.Why do people take everything the Bible says extremely literally?

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We know that they beleived the world to be flat, but these statements are not statements which are set for exchanging those beliefs. They are not expressing their belief in a flat earth any more than a person of modern times is expressing a belief in a flat Earth if they were to use such a statement.

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It is stretching it to say the word for farmible land means the whole world. Sure the earth is flat but there are few phrases implying the globe in the old and new testament. 'Foundations of the earth' may simply mean the rock under the soil. 'Four corners of the earth' implies everything except the oceans. Just because it is geocentric doesn't mean it was ruling out the universe. The stars were used for astronomy and seasonal time telling back then, thus the sun as a star rotated around the earth.It was a correct view of the universe at the time, but not one fit for space travel.Edited by fooj, : No reason given.

Oh, so the obviously idiotic things like the flood and 6 day creation are to be taken extremely literally but the bleedingly obviously idiotic things like the flat earth and such are not to be taken extremely literally and only should be taken partially literally??

I'm surprised noone has explained this misconception yet. Yes, before the dark ages there were various cultures, or rather individuals within the various cultures, that knew the earth was a sphere. Ancient greek philosophers actually tried to calculate the circumference of the earth by using simple geometry.But remember that during the bronze age, which was when the OT was written, not everybody believed the same thing. Hell, even today not everybody believe the same thing. The majority of the US population seem to think the earth is 6,000 years old, the world was created in 6 days, and there was a world wide flood... and we're a product of Noah's family's incestuous acts.To say that "people knew the earth was a sphere before the dark ages" implying that everybody knew the earth was a sphere before the dark ages is just silly. You can't point to certain greek philosophers who believed the earth was a sphere and proudly say the people of ancient israel knew the earth was a sphere. It's like pointing out that the US has a kick ass navy therefore Mongolia has a kick ass navy. Just silly.

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The Old Testament passages were written in a time and place when the common belief was a flat earth, so it makes sense that the writers did believe the earth was flat.

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Yeah, I'm not so sure. Probably most people, but perhaps an esoteric number had some insight."He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." -Isaiah 40:22Now, this is poetry speaking about the magnificence of God in relation to the creation, but nonetheless, the intimation, given by Isaiah, is that the earth is round. Why did he say that?Another verse that piqued my attention was found in the book of Job."He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; He suspends the earth over nothing." -Job 26:7Again, this book too is very poetic, however, the intimation that the earth is suspended over nothing must have been a difficult concept in those days, and yet, at least the author of Job seems to be able to believe this confidently.Its verses like these that make me wonder what people of ancient times did know, as opposed to us falsely assuming they were so uninformed.

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"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8

The reader must read all passages, not just one section
like what has been posted. in order to get the whole scope.Lets look closer, look at this phrase: "These are the visions I saw
while lying in my bed"The writter has already stated that this was a vision, not a real
event, then goes on to tell the rest of what he saw in this vision.
could it be a dream, which has meaning, that both the writter and you
must gleam what it means?And then there is this passage: "The world is firmly established; it
cannot be moved"All can agree that is does not say it is not moving nore that it is
moving, but that it is set on it's foundation and can not be moved.
meaning that man can not stop it, that it is set on it's foundation
by god, and only he can move it from it's foundation. the foundation
being it's spot in our system, and it's rotation in that system
around the sun.Zcoder....

Did you break any fingers typing that? That's as bizarre and convoluted as something our Attorney General would say!