Spinoza Pantheism Defined

Hi anglagard. I want to thank you for accurately beggining the post by stating the confusion that resulted by my ignorance in another thread. And for stating that I did retract and specify the differences as I became aware of them.I don't have a problem with your definition of Spinoza pantheism. It is prttey much a product of the same system (as I understand it) found in the East (Hinduism).What I wanted to address is the both-and argument. This is the inclusive element that does have a connection to the points I was making in the other thread minus the egotheism.I would like to share a debate between Ravi Zacharius and an unnamed American professor of Hinduism. It makes the point as well as I could make in my own words.It is a paraphrase from memory. I have almost memorized it entirely and is found on A CD Lecture called, 'Secularism and the illusion of nuetrality'. It is available at the following link: http://shop2.gospelcom.net/.../DisplayRavi relates the story:Edited by Rob, : additional quotes from lecture.Edited by Admin, : Shorten link.

I don't know Anglagard... prabably because there is a third element.We're not just body and soul (mind/emotions). We are also Spirit. We are triune like our creator. We were created in His image.The three components balance each other. I have to go...

In a sense you are correct. That's why pantheism is so close, and such a good copy. But it's not the same thing...I mean maybe Christianity is false and pantheism is true, but they both cannot be right. Somebody has to let go... And that's an important point. And that's what Jesus said, 'He who tries to keep his life will lose it. He that loses his life for my sake will find it.' Basic and fundamental coherent logic.The major distinction is that pantheism is full of contradictions, and the Trinity is harmonious intellectually. The contradictions in panthesim occur in trying to deal with the problem of evil. The moral dilemmas become so difficult that in Buddhism for example, we are told there is no essential 'you'... 'you' don't exist. Therefore your sin does not exist. It is only an illusion. But saying I don't exist is itself unaffirmable and illogical (a contradiction). Things that don't exist don't say anything...And there is another difference between Monistic pantheism and the Trinity (not sure if spinoza was a monist...). Monism says that all is God. One reality!In the trinity there is an I and a You. There is distinction, but with harmony in the godhead. The counterpart of evil is a work of a created being attempting to surpass God without the wisdom to find the way.So Christianity does not try to keep us down. It Jesus says, "I will give you everything... just let me lead you on the tour. Be patient, you have all eternity to learn about everything. Trust me."It's very difficult conceptually to pin down the difference between pantheism and theism for most people. I really have to concentrate to distinguish between the two myself. It is astonishing theology! Let me try to expound on it...God is good. There is community and harmony within the trinity. Both unity and diversity. Not both good and evil, because there is nothing inherently evil about knowledge. Just like there is nothing inherently evil about sexuality. You should read the sizzling and erotic song of Solomon! Sex was meant to be heavenly and sacred. It is only when knowledge is used incorrectly that it becomes wrong. There are some doors we don't want to open. Even homosexuals today draw the line somewhere. But the point is, we are not qualified to draw that line. Not even for ourselves. That would be an imposition! And we were not created for 'ourselves', but for community. (sorry for the tangent)Evil enters the picture not so much as knowledge, but potential knowledge that is not harmonious to community. It is the result of a created being, attemting to question what is already known to be good and experiment for himself... play God.And in a sense, it would seem like maybe there is another way. It does appear restrictive to say we can't go there. Why not?My kids are learning the hard way. How can they know the stove is hot when they have not experienced hot. But I have experienced hot. If they get hot enough, they'll perish, so I have to protect them. If I didn't, I'd be a wretched father. And they don't always like it trust me. I think we're just the same but with a major difference... We know from experience what is good and bad, but God knows because He can see it all in his own mind.You see, God is omniscient. So although He posesse the knowledge of good and evil, He has never violated His own goodness. He was able to think it all through from His position. And do so instantly, because He is also omnipotent. In a sense he had all of eternity to figure it out, but I don't think that eternity takes anytime at all. it's a wholly different nature. I reccomend reading C.S. Lewis on the concepts of time. Even if you are not a Christian, it is mind food. Any real thinker loves the headtrip of time.So He can forsee the consequences to the material universe if a road is allowed to fork off the wrong course without having gone there. So it is only out of goodness, that he does not allow us to live forever in our present state of ignorance. Imagine a world where Hitler was allowed to eat of the tree of life and live forever!The whole point of Christianity, is that if we will lay down our insistance on figuring it all out ourselves, God will simply give us all knowledge and eternal life for free! But we will get the pleasure of learning it one layer at a time without end! Kind of makes me glad I'm not God. I think I would be bored, though I don't think it's true for Him. It's no wonder he created us. He needed to share the glory of Himself and His reality not because He needed us, but because He is good, and it is good to share. It is just His nature to do good things.The only cost is complete surrender. Jesus asked, 'What will you give in exchange for your soul?'It's seems sick to some, but the Bible says we are bought and paid for, we only have to agree. Paid for with blood.That's the good news! It's not about belief, it's about actually meeting God.It's about selling your soul to God and Him possesing you spiritually. Yep, like selling your soul to the devil with one big difference... the devil already owns us. And that is hard for so many to accept. But that's the Matrix...If my failures and utter 'Robness' are any indication, there is still an I and a you. I am not a puppet on a string. It's like having a Father again. I'm in training. Learning things I never imagined were possible to know. And I see that most still don't believe it is possible to know.It is like your subconscious becomes conscious. You can see with your whole brain for the first time. I probably should have stopped a paragraph ago, but I would endure almost anything if I could find a way to get the message through.It's not a religion, it is the reality you seek! It is the truth. It is standing outside the matrix. But you have to give up the juicy red steak and admit it is an illusion. You weren't created for steak. You were created for much more...Don't just believe me. I'm not asking for that... just think about sometime if you haven't already.

A contradiction is not a paradox... non sequitorWebsters-
Contradiction 1: to assert the contrary of (eg. 'There is no truth')Paradox 1: a statement that seems contrary to comon sense, and yet is perhaps true (eg. God is three persons in one harmonius being, just as Archer is three persons in one being that are in conflict with himself)Theology 2: a theory or system of theologyPantheism is a contradiction. It breaks down as a system.Christianity is a paradox. Logic (Websters 2: sound reasoning) can accomodate a appearent paradox, it's called t-h-e-o-l-o-g-y.Have you never once in your life read Lewis. It's not even hard...Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

uh... yeah... ok.... duh... you got me... i'm so stupid...It's more like a cube... punk!It has three dimensions, but is one unit.It's like you... Psychologists call it an ego, the unconscious mind. But you also have a conscious mind.In Christianity we find something different. Body, soul, and spirit.Think of it like this... you're arguing with yourself internally. Weighing a decision. You got the angel on one side with cute little wings, and a little red devil with a pitch fork on the other like in the cartoons you watch when your not getting high and strumming a few bent chords on your gourd.Which one is you? The angel, the devil, or the guy in the middle?They're all you! And you are opposed to yourself...That is why you can make absolute statements (saying that absolutes do not exist), in clear (seeing /visual) violation of the definition of contradiction as given to Archer two posts ago from Websters. And you don't even realize it because...never mind... The point is my little friend... God is Whole. He can think with his whole brain. All three branches of the tree are coming from the same root. He does not oppose Himself. He is in harmony. He is consistent. He is unchanging. He is absolute. He is eternal. And He invites you to be holy (whole) also.It's free (sorta)!Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

You said: Rob:Archer:I never denied that! You misunderstood me in the other thread (or vice versa), as well as here. You have missed the greater and more obvious point. It is so obvious that it slides right under your inflated head (sorry but it's true).My point was and is, that you cannot see it, unless it is logical and you see the connections. Perhaps it is still true, but I know it is not, because I have seen the real thing.Just like when you were a kid, you thought you saw a lot of things in your own mind. You believed money was something it wasn't (as a poor analogy). But you couldn't see that fantasy! You only believed it. It was blind faith! And there are a lot of things in life like that. You imagined all sorts of 'wrong' things in your mind. We all do. Some of them are blatent contradictions. Jesus said, 'enter through the narrow gate'. He said, I will open your eyes. It's not strict... it is real life!You're living partially in a dream world Archer, and I am trying to tell you that you can see the kingdom of heaven before you taste death, not after. You only have to ask...Mark 9:1 And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."That's why certain forms of pantheism are so dangerous Archer. Because people have been in touch with other Spirits. And they are convinced becase they see deep things. So deep that the details and the contradictions elude them.I suspect, a self respecting pantheist may say the same thing about me......If so, at least they know that one of us is very, and terribly wrong. Because two philosophies that contradict each other (irrespective of internal conradictions within them) cannot both be true. You may believe they are, but you cannot show they are.But I can show that the one is contradictory. And not with conventional wisdom or common sense, but with strict application of the law of non-contradiction.What does that tell you? How far will you push the limits of human understanding to deny the obvious, when the only thing stopping you from surrendering now is your personal attatchment to whatever sin you refuse to let go of?That is the hurdle. It is not intellectual... it is moral.

Yes and no... Not really!There is nothing wrong with metaphor and symbolism. They just have to pass the logical consistency test. They must cohere as a system with 'the truth' being reflected at every layer of reality.If the system can be shown to contradict itself, it must be assumed false. Jesus said, 'a kingdom divided cannot stand'.Our problem is moral... That is the difficulty. So many of you accept the law of non-contradiction and use it the way it is intended... to identify falsehood! But you do not do so consistently. You pick and choose what to examine with that powerful tool.You stumble over the 'stone that has become the capstone'. You refuse to acknowledge your sin. And as a result, you are forced to blame others (and that is akin to calling them sinners).So many need a scapegoat to blame the problems of the world on, when Christ became the scapegoat 'for all' and you reject Him. As a result you point out the sins of others to justify yourself. The beast isn't the number of a man. It is man's number.G.K. Chesterton once answered a newspaper editors question, "What's wrong with the world?"Chesterton wrote, "Dear sir, in regard to your question 'what's wrong with the world... I am. Yours truely, G.K. Chesterton."Stop judging people, and look in the mirror of the law God gave us. Then save yourself by appropriating the salvation offered to each of us. As jesus said, 'then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free'.'Before you take the plank out of your brothers eye... first take the plank out of your own'.How can we save ourselves? By making a choice! The only real power we have.By submitting to 'the one' who can save us, and putting the ownership and responsibility on His shoulders and let Him be God. Give Him back our life, and He will breath life into us again by His spirit.'There is only one name given under heaven by which you must be saved'.It's real!

Archer:I think there is a flaw in your equation...Common sense (or conventional wisdom) does not have to be logical. So it is not equivilant to 'reason'. It may be the reason people use to found their culture or other governing ideas, but that does not mean it is ultimatley 'reasonable' (coherent).Reason is not enough, you need 'good' reason. And 'good' reason is coherent to begin with.I noticed this last night while falling asleep. Plug it in to the rest of our conversation, and it shouldn't be difficult to see the point.So yes, good reason cannot just still be true when opposed to the convention, but is, when the convention is mired in contradiction. You've turned this around to say that the convention can oppose the paradoxes of good reason.It is the contradictions in muddled philosophy that are the problem, not the paradoxes of theology."To be ignorant and simple now - not to be able to meet the enemies on their own ground - would be to throw down our weapons, and to betray our uneducated brethren who have, under God, no defense but us against the intellectual attacks of the heathen. Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy needs to be answered. The cool intellect must work not only against cool intellect on the other side, but against the muddy heathen mysticisms which deny intellect altogether." (Lewis / Learning in War-Time 1949, pg51)Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Something we all need to remember. My apologies...Do what you know and do it well...Romans 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" 12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

No... You explain why it doesn't... as I have shown with pantheism.And it's not my system... It is reality. If you want to understand reality, then ask Him.I can only show you the door. You have to open it.

You can't correct defiance. It is absolute!

Is your question logical? It's assertive equivilant would be to say that religion is not logical. That is positing a negative...It wasn't religion before the knowledge of good and evil, it was just reality. When man began to try to understand it without following every step of truth (God's leading), we stepped into the abyss.When you say religion is not logical, you are expressing a religious philosophy of your own that contradicts itself. Your saying your own statement is irrational... which is true, it is not logical. But that does not make all philosophy illogical. Only the illogical and contradictory ones.The whole lie... that faith is not rational, started with Emanuel Kant. The Bible says, be transformed by 'the renewing of your mind'. It does not say by 'the removal of your mind'.It is understandable Kuresu, but just like Calculus or higher math... it looks like nonsense until you first study the basics.The basics begin with the law of non-contradiction. And that is what my response was to Anglagard. It was an examle and argument as to why. The rest of this is off topic. If you can't understand calculus, then start with multiplication. But this making fun of the professor bit you so enjoy, is just sophomoric.The most basic part of all to understand is that you are a sinner. if you will not face that most basic fact and truth, then you have no truth in you to start the training. God will not reveal Himself until you tell Him your name.You can wrestle with Him like Jacob all through the night, but Jacob finally told Him the truth, 'My name is Jacob'.Jacob means 'duplicity'.Then... God said, 'Because you have told the truth, I will make a great nation out of you.'Start there if you really want to know. Otherwise, why waste both our times?Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

I have Anastasia.. I have! The problem is not intellectual, but moral. Remember what I told you about these people here. I warned you. But you do not understand yourself. You are worldly like them.Please listen to St. Paul.1 Corinthians 2:6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"-- 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?"You must be born again... You must be born again. Just like God breathed into Adam the breath of life. Adam died in his sin and we are all born into sin. You must recieve the Holy Spirit as Jesus said 'the counsellor would come' and lead us into all truth.Your religion is dead! You are not a Jew.Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

I can't even believe your saying this...What did Jesus say about those who could not hear????John 8:38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father." 39 "Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!The righteous cannot hear Anastasia. They are blind and deaf!Matthew 9:9 As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him. 10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" 12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."Are you rich or poor Anastasia? Hot or cold?Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."Matthew 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.Their are a lot of spirited people here Anastasia... If they want to save their lives, they must be willing to give up all of it, and be transformed by Christ living in them.That is what the bible says... And that is what a true prophet would say.

2 Peter 1:21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."Luke 11:47 "Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them.Luke 11:48 So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs.Why does the word of God, so enrage you Phat? Why are my words not clear?