EvC Forum: Discrimination against homosexuals carried into the 21st century

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Topic: Discrimination against homosexuals carried into the 21st century

ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 238 of 313 (379081)
01-22-2007 8:21 PM

Reply to: Message 237 by Fosdick
01-22-2007 8:16 PM

Re: My excuse for being rational

Hoot Mon writes:

There is nothing "equal" about civil unions for gays. It segregates them.

That's NOT a fact. That is only an opinion.

Nonsense. How is "gay people can not marry" equal?

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 237 by Fosdick, posted 01-22-2007 8:16 PM		Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 240 by Fosdick, posted 01-22-2007 8:33 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 241 of 313 (379086)
01-22-2007 8:38 PM

Reply to: Message 240 by Fosdick
01-22-2007 8:33 PM

Re: My excuse for being rational

Hoot Mon writes:

the MAJORITY of people agree with me. Every poll show that.

So what? Not long ago, the MAJORITY of people agreed with segregating black and white. Not long before that, the MAJORITY of people agreed with slavery.

The MAJORITY opinion has no bearing on right and wrong.

We are dealing with opinions here, not facts of civil equality.

Still nonsense, even if you repeat it.

Answer the question: What is equal about "gay people can't marry"?

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 240 by Fosdick, posted 01-22-2007 8:33 PM		Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 257 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 12:04 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 253 of 313 (379203)
01-23-2007 11:52 AM

Reply to: Message 251 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 11:30 AM

Hoot Mon writes:

"Legally and socially recognized"? Isn't that the objective of civil unions?

That objective is inadequate.

Black people were "legally and socially" recognized as citizens, but segregation still deprived them of equal education, etc. As long as any group is singled out for different legal and/or social recognition, there is no equality.

You still haven't answered the question: What is equal about telling gay people they are not allowed to marry?

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	Message 251 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 11:30 AM		Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 260 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 12:25 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 258 of 313 (379208)
01-23-2007 12:10 PM

Reply to: Message 257 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 12:04 PM

Re: My excuse for being rational

Hoot Mon writes:

The MAJORITY opinion has no bearing on right and wrong.

So you're against democracy?

Democracy also has nothing to do with right and wrong. It's about keeping the largest number of people as happy as possible as often as possible.

Democracy - the will of the MAJORITY - is no excuse for oppressing minorites.

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ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 261 of 313 (379213)
01-23-2007 12:30 PM

Reply to: Message 259 by NosyNed
01-23-2007 12:23 PM

Re: Civil Unions are fine to me

NosyNed writes:

First all references to marriage would have to be removed from all laws. Marriage would be a personal custom in some subcultures with no mention or support from government.

Yes. I agree with that. My only objection to "civil unions" is making a distinction between one group of people and another.

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ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 263 of 313 (379216)
01-23-2007 12:38 PM

Reply to: Message 260 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 12:25 PM

Hoot Mon writes:

What is UNEQUAL about allowing gays their equal rights to civil unions?

You might as well ask, "What is UNEQUAL about allowing slaves their equal rights to air?"

It isn't the rights they have that count - it's the rights they are deprived of. If gay people are deprived of the right to marry it is UNEQUAL.

... would you mind explaining to me how a same-sex "marriage" would be consumated.

Irrelevant. There is no government agency that polices the consumation of different-sex "marriage". Treating same-sex marriages differently would be UNEQUAL.

... I'll tell you something you may not know about biological sex.

By all means, tell us everything you know. (Or have you already?)

Edited by Ringo, : Spelling.

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ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 268 of 313 (379222)
01-23-2007 1:00 PM

Reply to: Message 265 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 12:54 PM

Re: "Consummation"

Hoot Mon writes:

I've NEVER heard of any marriage being annulled because one member refused to have oral or anal sex with the other.

Irrelevant. (And don't brag about what you don't know.)

How about answering the relevant posts?

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ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 274 of 313 (379231)
01-23-2007 1:39 PM

Reply to: Message 272 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 1:25 PM

Re: My excuse for being rational

Hoot Mon writes:

And don't tell me that homosexuality and race are somehow equivalent.

If you think there is a difference, why don't you show us the difference instead of just decreeing it? Until you can show a difference between racist bigotry and homophobic bigotry, bigotry is just bigotry.

(And I'd be willing to bet that Martin Luther King, Jr. would not agree with you on this issue.)

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 272 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 1:25 PM		Fosdick has replied

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	Message 276 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 2:50 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 279 of 313 (379242)
01-23-2007 3:06 PM

Reply to: Message 276 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 2:50 PM

Re: My excuse for being rational

Hoot Mon writes:

But is a person born to be gay? I don't know.

And yet you feel free to discriminate on the basis of what you don't know.

I think it may be a matter of choice. Prove to me it isn't and I'll say you moved a step closer to equalizing race with sexuality.

That's not the way it works. You prove that homosexuality is nothing but a choice and then you can treat it like any other choice.

The way human rights works is: equal until proven unequal.

But do you really think there ought to be special laws protecting that choice?

You are the one who is advocating special laws to discriminate against the "choice". I'm just saying, "let same-sex couples marry under the same laws as anybody else."

People choose to be Masons and body builders and cat owners, too; maybe they need their own special laws.

No. We need to not pass special laws to discriminate against Masons, body builders and cat owners.

Ringo, Dan, and the rest of you morality cops....

Wait a minute. You're the one who wants to police gay marriage, not us.

Do you honestly believe that the framers of our Constitution or any of the authors of its Ammendments were the least bit concerned about the rights of gay people to get married?

They also owned slaves and denied women the vote.

At least be consistent. When you advocate anti-gay legislation, at least devote equal time for campaigning to reinstate slavery and restore the vote to only propertied white males.

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 276 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 2:50 PM		Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 282 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 3:44 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 280 of 313 (379243)
01-23-2007 3:11 PM

Reply to: Message 277 by Hyroglyphx
01-23-2007 3:01 PM

Re: Cat food

nemesis_juggernaut writes:

Maybe the problem with your naysayers is that they have no foresight and no hindsight.

It's better to be sightless than heartless.

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ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 284 of 313 (379261)
01-23-2007 4:13 PM

Reply to: Message 282 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 3:44 PM

Hoot Mon writes:

This time let's give the Indians a better shake. I don't see anybody bothered by the abused they've taken.

Still bragging about what you don't see.

Let's have special laws for anybody who feels deprived, marginalized, downtrodden, and queer in any way.

You're not paying attention: I said, "Let's NOT have special laws to discriminate against any of those groups."

YOU are the one who wants to segregate gays into their own non-marriage ghetto.

... please draft me a new Constitution. Let's trash that old one written by those awful bigots.

No need for that. Just use it as it was written, not as bigots wish it was written.

Let's have special laws assuring equal rights for pole sitters and coin collectors.

Still not paying attention. We don't need any "special laws" to assure equal rights. We just need to prevent the passage of "special laws" that remove equal rights from anybody.

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 282 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 3:44 PM		Fosdick has not replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 287 of 313 (379272)
01-23-2007 5:03 PM

Reply to: Message 286 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 4:58 PM

Re: Just opinions, that's all

Hoot Mon writes:

But DON'T tell me that a minority opinion has special rights just because it's an opinion.

Nobody is telling you that.

What we're trying to tell you is that minority people have the same rights, regardless of the majority opinion.

Majority opinion can not vote away basic human rights.

Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 286 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 4:58 PM		Fosdick has not replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 297 of 313 (379319)
01-23-2007 7:32 PM

Reply to: Message 293 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 7:18 PM

Re: Good question.

Hoot Mon writes:

Ringo, a question: Does Canuckistan provide for same-sex marriages under its laws?

Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer.

We abolished slavery before you guys too.

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This message is a reply to:
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