King David found guilty on all counts.

I have been avoiding this arguement with you, as you are over simplfying it, and also mis-representing how the story goes.David commited more than a crime. David was able to hear the voice of God, and was in direct relations with God. David betrayed God, the creator of the universe, and pissed God off. We are God's creation, and God can choose to do with us what He pleases. Again, this whole vision of what good and bad is, is not clearly definable, since we don't understand God's ways completely.If you notice, after Jesus came, God no longer did things like this to us, we only do it to ourselves.In both cases, God clearly gives us levels of responsibility, and always gives us free will, whether we recognize that or not. To David, He gave a lot, so when David screwd up, then David messed it up for many people, not just himself, because David was made responsible for those people, he was the king.Are you denying that people in authority, cannot be responsible for killing many, by their actions?

Hey, I guess your right, all this happened by chance then. The world sucks all on its own. How do you even know what "sucks" is?

Or maybe I am getting at the heart of the issue. Is that God's fault, or some fruitloop named Bush? Is that God's fault, or some fuitloop fundie?
I believe in God, and I believe God considers homosexuality a sin, but I find no need to go around telling people that, or hate anyone for it, since we are all sinners. I believe Jesus came to save not judge. Did God do it, or did people do it?
Is anyone really innocent? It is very hard for me to picture the life of the Old testament, being that Jesus has changed that way of life for us. I do believe it is possible. I think if your God, and you kill people, you obviously know where they are going afterwards, and I hope that is heaven, or who knows, maybe even hell for a short visit. Is it so bad to leave this life, and travel to the next? Only for those that are left behind. Your problem is that you approach all this without even remotely believing in the afterlife. Even the Son of God had to suffer immensly, so obviously there is a point to it all. You always approach suffering as bad, as do a few others, which is a topic spawned from this story about David. But we always seem to find some good that happens from the bad. I can deal with the shit He has done, but I won't pretend to know why, and call judgement on it. The God I believe in, ultimately is a good God, even though He puts us through what we think are bad things. You do not get a "get out of bad things in life on earth card" if you start believing in God. I didn't, and neither did Jesus, His son.
I have seen it in my own life, and all the bad things that God has put through has ultimately brought me to God, and has wound up to make me a better person. I actually thank Him for the bad things that have come to pass, and I have learned from. There is no embarassing exuse. God is tough, and you will learn things the hard way from Him wether you accept Him or not, that's life. Fortunately for us, Jesus came, and God is not as tough on us as He was in the OT. That is why we should be thankful.How can you pretend to understand the meaning of life the universe and everything (42) and say that what God has done, and is doing is wrong?
You only have your narrow minded, unfinshed, unproven opinion of life.
How can you say that God simply does not exist because you feel it is impossible based on your opinions of what life should be, or because God killed "innocent" babies, and 20,000 people under King David?If you were truely scientifcal, and logical, then you would be agnostic by nature. You would be open to the possibility that your opinions of life, are not what they appear to be. Just like I am open to the possibility that God does not exist, and I am just crazy.

When did I say what David did isn't bad? I totally agree that David is guilty. When I talk about good and bad, I am speaking through the eyes of God, and what He does, and how we percieve it. No the people are not responsible if their leader doesn't follow the law. Are you saying they are? Nobody votes for a leader with the hopes that they will break the law. Leaders are supposed to be a model of the law, not be breaking it.I think you are trying to equivocate God picking an imperfect leader with God being perfect. I think that is a mistake. We always have free will, and free choices, and no-one is perfect.Again, how do we know that David wasn't the best choice?

See, this statement is misrepresenting of how it happens. I am not being defensive at all. I have explained how I feel, that David was guilty, and that I do not pretend to know God's ways. So I won't even attempt to call it wrong or right. I remain in the middle. To me everyone else that is one either side is an extremist of sorts. God allowed it to happen. You have to be careful when you try to understand God's goodness. It is not always easily understandable by us. God did good by sending Jesus, and look what Jesus had to go through. At the time of the flood, God did it, but it was because of how man decided to live.
God is always involved with everything, since He created everything, but the blame does not always fall directly on God, since He has given us the gift of decision, and responsibility. Your trying to put it all on God, and then say God can't exist, because God is supposed to be good. That is an ignorant position to have. Never once have I said that I agree with it. I have said that I agree with David being guilty. It is impossible for me to agree with it, since I do not fully understand it, or do I fully understand God.
I can only understand what God has revealed to me about my own life, and try to learn lessons from what has happened to others. I will forever be seeking God, even though I think He found me.

I am not assuming it, I am hoping for it. I really don't know God's intentions, and how He defines good and bad. I have mentioned I am in the middle about this, only because I just don't know what God deems good or bad. I do know that it is bad, as far as we see it. This is the problem. Your basing "bad" on your narrow minded view of bad. Many years ago it was bad to be a heritic, and you could get hanged for it. Our view of what is good and bad constantly changes. If we knew heaven existed, and what God's reasons might have been, then maybe you wouldn't call it a bad choice. Just because God allows things to happen doesn't make Him responsible. This is not a new arguement. It's the whole free will thing.Like I said, since God created everything, then everything is His fault, right? And if He created everything, then He did choose David. That's an opinion, based on what little we know about David, the other choices that could have been made, and the universe in general. If He didn't let man have free will, then we wouldn't be humans. Does this assume God exists, and knows all that can happen? Maybe He did. How can I possibly know the answer to that question? Judging from the stories in the OT, and studying the way things were back then, I kind of doubt it. It seems throughout the OT, man in general was not satisfied with just one woman, and it got to the point the God had to step in and say, now you only should be with just one. Kings with 500 wives, would still go and steal their brothers wives.

God is responsible for everything, since He created everything.He put David in charge. David knows the law, and knows what God would do to Him, if he broke it, yet David did it anyway, so God punished him.Here is what the commentary says about that verse, so you can better understand, and represents that verse more accurately than you have throughout this thread:

quote:

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12:1-14 God will not suffer his people to lie still in sin. By this parable Nathan drew from David a sentence against himself. Great need there is of prudence in giving reproofs. In his application, he was faithful. He says in plain terms, Thou art the man. God shows how much he hates sin, even in his own people; and wherever he finds it, he will not let it go unpunished. David says not a word to excuse himself or make light of his sin, but freely owns it. When David said, I have sinned, and Nathan perceived that he was a true penitent, he assured him his sin was forgiven. Thou shalt not die: that is, not die eternally, nor be for ever put away from God, as thou wouldest have been, if thou hadst not put away the sin. Though thou shalt all thy days be chastened of the Lord, yet thou shalt not be condemned with the world. There is this great evil in the sins of those who profess religion and relation to God, that they furnish the enemies of God and religion with matter for reproach and blasphemy. And it appears from David's case, that even where pardon is obtained, the Lord will visit the transgression of his people with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. For one momentary gratification of a vile lust, David had to endure many days and years of extreme distress.

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We constantly pay for the sins of others in this life, you should have realized that by now. God allows it to happen. Or, in your case, there is no God. There is no battle between good and bad.

I have not heard that one before, and I would like you to back that up with documentation. If Bush did declare that, then that is another strike against Bush in my eyes. From there own warped minds. If they didn't believe in God, then they would just find something else to be annoying about.
Not every Christian condemns homosexuality you know. From the same book that tells you that all sin is wrong, and that we are sinners, and all sin is equal. So they are just hypocrites. Nothing, but it wasn't the babies that were being punished. You do not know where these babies are now. I do read a lot about it, but I really wish I could experience it. But then again, I am glad I don't have too. I think you can't really understand it fully unless you were there. Our understanding of it, is only as good as the next discovery. Of course I have pity for them. I have pity for everyone, including myself. You cannot call God a petty barbarian if you don't understand Him. As a matter of fact, you can't call God anything, you don't believe in Him, so the only thing you are trying to do, is to stir up emotion, instead of using logic. A poor debating tactic, and it does not lead to intelligent conversation. It is one of the reasons why I find you so full of shit. But that doesn't mean I do not like you. You don't have to, but if your scientifical at all, you should be open to the possibility, and not be claiming that it doesn't exist at all. LoL, it worked... Maybe God should have just taken away their video games... Good then, you agree with me. Since we are all immortal, relatively speaking those babies did not experience any suffering. Get your thoughts straight. Yes, I feel that way also, but some people just commit suicide. I am not ignoring it. So He doesn't slaughter mine? (if I lived in the OT)
The God I worship, does not currently slaughter babies, and forgives people, past, present, and future. That is the God I worship. So it is an exuse when I say, I do not understand God?
It's not like I don't ask the same questions you do, and I do seek those answers. But I can see that it is entirely possible for me to not understand God, after all He is the creator of the Universe, and we are all just his babies.You desire to be on the same level as God. The bible says you must humble yourself. That is not an easy thing for you, or I to do. But I have experienced in my life that humbling yourself, does indeed get you closer to God. I have experiences small doses of His goodness, and the experiences were so eye opening, and full of revelation, that I now can't even imagine the fullness of His goodness, and I can start to understand why people dropped dead in His presence. Isn't that what I just said? He also took on the weight of everyones sin, a thing that you or I could not even begin to imagine. Just so you know, I am 41 years old, and I only really belleived in God the last 3 years. I am not so hell bent on mantaining a fantasy. Save your preaching for the fundies out there who do not get it. There is no such thing as a free thinker. Of course you are, you finished convincing yourself there is no God, no matter what.

I have never questioned that, throughout this entire thread. Ok, I agree to that. It's possible. I have said that I am unsure a few times now. Because I just can't answer some of the questions posed in this thread. I understand what your saying, but it is hard for me to accept that more, than, God just choosing David. God choose me to be a worship leader in my church. I would have choose somebody else over me, and I feel underqualified, yet I am there. I hurt peoples feelings to much with the way I am, and that is no way to be, when your a worship leader. Like I said, no where in the bible does it say that God makes perfect choices (in our eyes) and many of God's choices turn out in similiar fashion. So if I discount David's story, then I must discount all the stories.Plus for me, I think its the moral of the story that is more important. I think everyone here agrees on the moral of the story, and that is, if God gives you a lot, you should be respectful of that, otherwise you stand to loose a lot.

I guess the bible says He did both, made them die, although you still haven't provided the verse cantaining the word 20,000. And He allowed it to happen.This is all according to the bible. I still won't pretend to know why it happened, only that it is possible that it was for the good, even though it appears bad to us.You can stop the accussations now, please....I have never lied in this forum, not in over 4000 posts, so don't call me one.

So them you understand what I am saying, when I say that God does indeed choose people who are "not perfect" for the job? Of course I recognize that. But when I say I am not a literalists, it's not because I think those stories did not happen, it is because I realize that those stories which took years to take place, and are summed up in a few paragraphs, do not contain all the details, and since the bible has been translated so many times, that all the "facts" or the way it was written, may have contradictions with in it, that lead people to miss the actual point of the story. Of course. I am also starting to think that God intended the bible to be entirely subjective. I think that is the power of the living word.
People read the bible every year, and every year they find something new about it, or interpret it differently than previous years. I think God intended it that way, so we could use it to grow in Him. Sooner or later, we may find out that there are actual absolute morals within the words of the bible. But we all have to grow first, and that may include mis-interpreting the bible at times. Are you talking about David taking the woman?

I believe they could have happened, but it really doesn't matter because the point of the story is what is most important. If your not a literalist, then you don't even believe that David was a king, right?And if you think David was king, I still don't see a problem with God chosing him, and then David screwing up.If you believe in God, then you must believe He created us all, and we are all screw ups, so David screwing up is just normalism.I still say, big responsibility, big mistakes.

Insulting me, makes you look stupid.
I know the verse, I have provided commentary on the verse. If there are any other verses you would like to discuss, and stop speculating about things, I will. I told you, I am not a bible expert. So provide the verse then. I am not denying anything, although you seem to think I am, and that I am playing dumb. Playing dumb is discussing the bible without including the actual verses.

What you haven't explained is how there could have been someone better, and who that person might have been. I already told you, I could accept that, but thats not what I think currently. But then your missing my whole point. It may not have been a mistake at all. There is a line of reasoning, according to bible teachings that can explain all that. Sure, what happened was bad, and wrong, but it may not have been a mistake.

I never disagreed with that, what's your problem? Ok, I am sick of it. You've called me a liar how many times in this thread? You so full of shit. You have to show how I am lying, and not just call me names. You'll have to show exactly where I lied first, then you can call me a liar. I am not Christian. Don't blame me for your own short comings.
If you don't get what I am saying, ask me to explain it, and stop calling me names. 4 year olds do that. I only do one thing in God's name, and that is try to love others, period. Funny, I guess that makes you a liar of sorts. Not only have you called me a liar, you tried to start an entire thread devoted to calling people who lie for Jesus. I think you should be suspended. If I was admin, I would do it in a heart beat. Luckily I am not, and I do have a heart, so I ignore what you say about me, and forgive you for saying it. Because maybe you do not know what you do. Maybe your so ignorant that you have no choice but to call me a liar. Otherwise you have to admit to something else. No that's a lie. I can prove that it is a lie. Should I call you a liar now? Would you like the link to where I got that commentary? It is the commentary for that exact verse. If you don't accept it, then maybe you should study more, or don't and live your life as you are. But don't call people liars based on your ignorance, that's just bullshit.2 Samuel 12:11 This is what the LORD says: 'I will raise up adversity against you from your own house. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to another, and he will lie with them in broad daylight.
Click on the comm tab. If I go, then you'll be there to. But then we won't have all this baggage that is the world in our heads, and it will just our spirits, as we were when we were children, and we will get along, and have a good time. Peace.