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Author Topic:   Show me why Sunday is the Day
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6080 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 10 of 28 (379635)
01-24-2007 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by truthlover
01-24-2007 12:20 PM


4th commandment is one
of ten, which happen to be immutable. Look from beginning to end of scripture and you will not find them 'done in'.
Most folks would get all bent out of shape if someone suggested nine don't apply, nine are fine, one isn't.
How the ten commandments became 'Jewish' is a mystery to me. They were around long before there ever was a Jew, and the fourth was kept first by God HIMSELF and the commandment tells you why and what its purpose is.
That it is Saturday is also not up for dispute, although people dispute it, because they don't know how to deal with an omnipotent God. Regardless, Sabbath is the seventh day and it tells you what your activities should be and how it should be observed.
Here are some examples of what folks have done with this day, because they think they can:
(If you don't know which church has cardinals, it's the catholic church).
James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 88th ed., pp. 89.
"But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."
Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.
"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
"Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."
John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1 936), vol. 1, P. 51.
"Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days."
Daniel Ferres, ed., Manual of Christian Doctrine (1916), p.67.
"Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
"Answer. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of, and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.'
James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.
"Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day -Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes . Did Christ change the day'? I answer no!
"Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons"
The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.
"The Catholic Church, . . . by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday."
Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth."
"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible."
Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957), p. 50.
"Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
"Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
"Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
"Answer. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."
So much for the catholics, whose fingers fingered the change.
Here are some Protestants. I don't know what possesses them to acknowledge but not practice:
Anglican/Episcopal
Isaac Williams, Plain Sermons on the Catechism , vol. 1, pp.334, 336.
"And where are we told in the Scriptures that we are to keep the first day at all? We are commanded to keep the seventh; but we are nowhere commanded to keep the first day .... The reason why we keep the first day of the week holy instead of the seventh is for the same reason that we observe many other things, not because the Bible, but because the church has enjoined it."
Baptist
Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, a paper read before a New York ministers' conference, Nov. 13, 1893, reported in New York Examiner , Nov.16, 1893.
"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday. It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week .... Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament absolutely not.
"To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question . . . never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated.
"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history . . . . But what a pity it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism!"
Lutheran
The Sunday Problem , a study book of the United Lutheran Church (1923), p. 36.
"We have seen how gradually the impression of the Jewish sabbath faded from the mind of the Christian Church, and how completely the newer thought underlying the observance of the first day took possession of the church. We have seen that the Christians of the first three centuries never confused one with the other, but for a time celebrated both."
Augsburg Confession of Faith art. 28; written by Melanchthon, approved by Martin Luther, 1530; as published in The Book of Concord of the Evangelical Lutheran Church Henry Jacobs, ed. (1 91 1), p. 63.
"They [Roman Catholics] refer to the Sabbath Day, a shaving been changed into the Lord's Day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it seems. Neither is there any example whereof they make more than concerning the changing of the Sabbath Day. Great, say they, is the power of the Church, since it has dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments!"
Methodist
John Wesley, The Works of the Rev. John Wesley, A.M., John Emory, ed. (New York: Eaton & Mains), Sermon 25,vol. 1, p. 221.
"But, the moral law contained in the ten commandments, and enforced by the prophets, he [Christ] did not take away. It was not the design of his coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken .... Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind, and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other."
Dwight L. Moody
D. L. Moody, Weighed and Wanting (Fleming H. Revell Co.: New York), pp. 47, 48.
The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God Wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?"
Roman Catholic and Protestant Confessions about Sunday
More may be found in the link. Or do your own research.
Enjoy!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by truthlover, posted 01-24-2007 12:20 PM truthlover has not replied

DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6080 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 11 of 28 (379638)
01-24-2007 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chiroptera
01-24-2007 6:58 PM


Nine are for everyone
one is not. That is profoundly gullible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 01-24-2007 6:58 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Chiroptera, posted 01-24-2007 10:10 PM DorfMan has replied

DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6080 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 13 of 28 (379640)
01-24-2007 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
01-24-2007 12:52 AM


Re: Sabbath
Would Paul go contrary to God's commandments? If not, then what does he mean by the statements you cite?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2007 12:52 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6080 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 14 of 28 (379642)
01-24-2007 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Chiroptera
01-24-2007 10:10 PM


Re: Nine are for everyone
Then why don't you prove it from scripture, Acts 15 what?
Roman Catholic and Protestant Confessions about Sunday

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Chiroptera, posted 01-24-2007 10:10 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Chiroptera, posted 01-24-2007 10:18 PM DorfMan has not replied

DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6080 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 23 of 28 (380411)
01-27-2007 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by truthlover
01-26-2007 2:38 PM


Actually, it means
rest.
quote:
Sabbath means "rest."
Actually, Sabbath means seven.
It is so enjoyable how folks explain it away and away and away. Explain it away and it goes away. God has requirements of Jews but not of Christians, Catholics make unauthorized changes, but insist the absolute power they assume gives them absolute power. The commandments apply to all, but not the Jewish one, nevermind most Christians have no clue what "Jewish or Israelite" really means. Folks cite scripture which they have read. A few moments of holy ecstasy later, they are informed of what they have read. The requirement of 'study to show yourself approved' and the inherent difference between reading and studying means diddly-squat. Reading the information of my first post and seeing how the change came about and the acknowledgement of Protestants that 'yes, there is a change and it is unauthorized', also means diddly. Going on about your merry way, after it has already been 'splained away, it most certainly has not gone away. The commandment itself tells you when, where, how, and why and for whom.
Exd 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exd 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exd 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exd 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
As valid as ever. Paul's mention of sabbath days (rest days)have nothing to do with this commandment. This understanding comes with study. Christ's contradiction of the Jews of HIS time, has nothing to do with this commandment. All you need to do is 'learn' what they had done with this day, to understand Christ's contradiction. Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath will take on HIS intent.
As for the catholic church? It's good to investigate who they are and what they teach. Not that they will own up to it. See below:
Join in discussion with catholics, and this is what happens:
“We cannot allow that every private Priest or member of the Church of Rome should give his own opinions merely as the standard of doctrine. We will have recourse to the oracular response of the Church, and insist that they be represented by themselves; not, however, by private individuals, but by their legal representatives. But, then, there is nothing which they dread so much as the testimony of their own Church. ... IT IS A PRINCIPAL AIM OF ALL [ROMAN CATHOLIC] CONTROVERTISTS TO EMPLOY EVERY MODE OF EVASION IN ORDER TO DISCONCERT THEIR OPPOSERS. There is even a marked difference between the tone of these Romish Divines who speak dogmatically for the instruction of their own members and that of those who attempt to answer the objections of their antagonists. With the former, all is matter of downright certainty; with the latter, all is doubt, difficulty, subterfuge, and evasion. When the faithful are to be instructed, every Priest becomes the sure depositary of the infallible decisions of an infallible Church; but when Protestants are to be confuted, the declarations of their most illustrious men are of no authority. Councils are discovered to have been but partly approved; Popes did not speak ex cathedra; Cardinals and Bishops are but private Doctors; and who cares for the opinion of an obscure Priest or Friar? Thus nothing is so difficult as to know what the belief of Roman Catholics really is; and WHEN A PROTESTANT ADDUCES THEIR OWN WRITERS AS WITNESSES, HE IS FREQUENTLY (In my experience, he is always) TOLD THAT HE IS A MISREPRESENTER OF THEIR CHURCH” (Charles Elliott, Delineation of Roman Catholicism, London: John Mason, 1851, p. 23).
From the pope:
The Pope Can Change, Add to, or Take Away From, and His Word is Greater than the Holy Scriptures
"We confess that the Pope has power of changing Scripture and of adding to it, and taking from it, according to his will." Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath, Article XI, (Confessio Romano-Catholica in Hungaria Evangelicis publice praescripta te proposita, editi a Streitwolf), as recorded in Congressional Record of the U.S.A., House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913.
http://www.geocities.com/visplace/godsmith20.htm
"We confess that whatever new thing the Pope ordains, rather it be in Scriptures or not in Scripture, and whatever he commands is true, divine and salvific; and therefore ought to be held by Lay People in greater esteem than the living God." Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath, Article IV, (Confessio Romano-Catholica in Hungaria Evangelicis publice praescripta te proposita, editi a Streitwolf), as recorded in Congressional Record of the U.S.A., House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913.
http://www.geocities.com/visplace/godsmith20.htm
From the Bible:
Deuteronomy 4 Hear now, O Israel, the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live and may go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Deuteronomy 12: 32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
Proverbs 30: 6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Matt 15:6 Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 8 ””These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’”
1 Cor 4:6 (NIV) Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written."
Rev 20: 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
These Scriptures speak very, very clearly. How is it, that so many "Christians" just disregard it, explain it away? Hasn't gone away, will not go away.
Etc!
“The Pope’s authority is unlimited, incalculable; it can strike, as Innocent III says, wherever sin is; it can punish every one; it allows no appeal and is itself Sovereign Caprice; for the Pope carries, according to the expression of Boniface VIII, all rights in the Shrine of his breast. As he has now become infallible, he can by the use of the little word, 'orbi,' (which means that he turns himself round to the whole Church) make every rule, every doctrine, every demand, into a certain and incontestable article of Faith. No right can stand against him, no personal or corporate liberty; or as the Canonists put it -- 'The tribunal of God and of the pope is one and the same.'” Ignaz von Dollinger, in “A Letter Addressed to the Archbishop of Munich”, 1871 (quoted in The Acton Newman Relations (Fordham University Press), by MacDougall, p 119-120).
Etc.!
Enjoy!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by truthlover, posted 01-26-2007 2:38 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by truthlover, posted 01-27-2007 5:00 PM DorfMan has not replied

DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6080 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 24 of 28 (380413)
01-27-2007 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
01-25-2007 1:10 AM


Re: Sabbath
quote:
jar writes:
Yet others know that it is not one day at all but rather everyday.
Thats how I look at it. When one is sabbathing, one is resting from the competitive world we live in.
Every day is perfect for worship and should be done every day, compelled by the love we feel for the ONE we love.
One day, the seventh, is set aside for something additional. Look at it closely. Is there a doubt?
Exd 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exd 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exd 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Enjoy!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 01-25-2007 1:10 AM Phat has not replied

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