King David found guilty on all counts.

What do people today have to do with people of thousands of years ago.The bible never says that we won't grow, and become more mature. People today are far more intellectually advanced in most areas, than then. It is plainly obvious how barbaric things where then. God seems to me, the only thing that tried to take us out of that barbaric thinking process was God. I really couldn't answer that with any authority. Judging by stories of some of the other Kings, David was a sweetheart. Not unless they were kings, then it wouldn't be a fair comparison. Let's compare apples to apples. Of course I did, way back in Message 37You can't say, or think that everything God chooses for us, is going to be so perfect by our standards. God created this whole life, and it is difficult. So unless you can explain the complexities of life to me, and why bad things happen to everyone, then you can't say that it was a bad choice. Everyone in power, including Hitler is there by God.
The bible says it, but I am going to have to look for the verse. I think it is linked to psalm 82.

You sure you want to stand by that statement? Your telling me it is a logical thing to compare people of today, with the way we are taught, to people of long ago, and the way they were brought up? The knowledge base is mostly different. It was made by God, we do the choosing. It is apparent all around you, there is no denying that we are barbaric, and continue to be. Two thousand years from now, they will look back at us, and call us barbaric. Then we just really don't know how they would have faired as kings then, would we. Thats just speculation. I am not saying they wouldn't have done better, but I am not going to say they would have either. I think your not comparing apples to apples, that is the problem here. You want to compare David to us today, and to people who were not king. Why don't you compare David to the other kings in the bible.
Seems like most of the kings did not have a problem with killing thousands for personal gains. Now that I do not see as probable. How can someone just choose to be king? Yes you do, because you are implying that God only makes good choices, or would have only made a good choice (in our eyes) and not a bad choice (in our eyes).
So your going to have to explain this theory of God making good choices all the time, and not letting bad things happen, when he makes a choice.
Otherwise, it is perfectly reasonable to say that God makes choices that appear bad to us. So choosing David, was not only entirely reasonable, it was probable. Well I am glad you think that way. At least you believe in free will. However there are those that think God is to blame for everything, since He created everything. I am happy to know that you are not one of them, and appreciate the gift of life that God has given us. Oh great, so now all the psalms are worth nothing. Obviously a man who commits murder can not hear from God? Is that it?In psalms 82:
6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."The NIV study notes explain that those who rule (or judge) do so by God's appointment and thus they are his representatives-whether they acknowledge him or not.Then there is a bunch of verses to back up that line of thought.
Such as:
Daniel 2:
21 He changes times and seasons;
he sets up kings and deposes them.
He gives wisdom to the wise
and knowledge to the discerning.If this is true, then clearly all leaders are there by God's appoinment, and many of them are not perfect, why does David have to be?We are all gods (little "g") and we are all lords (little "l"), and God is the King of kings, Lord of lords. We all have great responsibility, and we all screw up.There was only one that didn't screw up, and that was His Son.

Because God's ways are not our ways. You cannot compare what we think is bad, to what God thinks is bad.
It's a simple truthful point, yet you keep denying it. Just because God knows something bad is going to happen shouldn't stop Him from giving someone a chance. Besides, we have no way of fully explaining the mechanics of how God knows all anyway, and how that interfaces with time for us.People argue with me that if God knows everything, then there are no choices to make, and there is no free will. But clearly there is free will, as you agreed, and David was given an opportunity. Then neither do you.What gets me is, even though I told you that I would be willing to accept your view, you have not done the same to me and my view. It seems like a one way street. I guess we will have to agree to disagree, even though I do not totally disagree with you, only you with me. Of course, and that thinking is based on what? The study notes did, not me. I am only pointing them out, and leaving it as a distinct possibility. There are verses to go along with it as well, but it is probably best left to another thread, which I do not feel like starting. Why? I don't see any logic in that.
David set an example, and gave us a lesson to learn for thousands of years. Sounds like something God would do. Thats huge. Not only was David a murderer, but he set an example by his wrong doings for millions of people.God picked Moses too, and Moses killed someone.

Wait a sec, your basing what God would have done, or not based on human knowledge? And then your saying that human knowledge is the same now, as it was 3 thousand years ago?
Plus your getting the whole story from the bible, which teaches you that God's ways, are not our ways, and God has done what appears to us as many cruel and indifferent things, and assuming that God has not done those things, and totally denying that David even existed at all?So in other words, you are your own god? I am basing it on what I read about God, in the bible. You are just making stuff up, based on what we see today. You can't compare today with long ago, because Jesus came in the interim and changed many things about what we feel.I am disapointed, I thought you would be able to picture more of how things were back then, and see the possibility. I am also disapointed that you are on a one-way street. If you think that was the lesson, then you are severely lacking in your knowledge base, and your ability to assertain the moral of a story is lacking. You focud too much on what David did, and not what God did to David for being like that.
The book is about God, not David.
The op puts David on trial, not God. David was guilty, and paid a hefty price for what he did. God was Daivds judge.

But David was a man after God's heart. At the time he might not have been a better choice, that is a distinct possibility. Not everyone has the qualifications to be a king. One of God's ways was to wipe out the earth with a flood (or at least that is how the story goes), and God also sets us up to live in an imperfect world, full of depression, and hurt (the tree). It seems pretty normal to me, that God would choose someone capable of screwing up big time, since we all screw up. The world, and the bible is full of God's ways that are very mysterious, and don't exactly seem good to me. So David's screw up is no surprise at all. No, I do not take them at their word, I take the bible as God's word through the Holy Spirit. I am sure there many texts to choose from, yet there are the ones that make it into the bible. They may have been barbaric, but if David was a man trying to make himself look good through his writings, then why does he write about his mistakes? I don't feel that way, I feel we are all changed by Jesus, in that when Jesus died, the curtain to the temple was torn, and our bodies are now the temple. How we treat our temple, and how we search for God, will determine when we are born again. Before Jesus, we do not even get this opportunity, and must go to the temple to experience God's manifest presense. Only very few people in the OT times are able to get close to God, that tells me that there are very few to choose from. David was a man after God's heart, but that didn't make David perfect, and he screwd up, and should have paid the price. He was regretful of his mistakes. It is hard to have this conversation with you, because you discredit the OT as being valid, or having ever happened. So it would be immposible for you to imagine how things where based on the writings of OT. I read the OT, and study things about the past(outside the bible), and I get a picture of how things were.
You can even study societies that still live like that today, and get a clear picture of what was going on back then. Clearly what a musslim extremeist thinks is a good man, and what a liberal tree hugger thinks is a good man are two very different things. I got it, but remeber our narrow paths are subjective.
That's why I keep an open mind. You are kind of insulting me when you say that, poor show ringo.God can entrap anyhone He wants, especially if He gives us the after life. You are looking at life like this is the only life we have. That is why I said, technically speaking, or according to our manmade laws, God is guilty of everything that ever happened. But that is a thought from the minds of men, not God.I don't expect you to get that one

I didn't say wrong.If you can sit there and tell me that I have no way of distinguishing what God perceives as good, why then do you?Isn't that hypocrisy? Maybe that explains the one-way street. I think it can. Many people complain about this life an it's "unfairness". We are His creation, and He can do with us what He wants. If God is a good God, then we have to assume that we just don't understand what good is, since babies starving Africa do not seem like a good thing to me either.

I've always looked at is the word of God written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit.It is nothing unless you are seeking God though.

Yes there is, there is the Holy Spirit.

You are in direct contradiction with, yourself. I thought I explained that thought already. I am absolutely basing it on what we know. I've been trying to explain it to you for quite a few posts now. That is just an opinion from someone who cannot create anything. You only make stuff from the creation, only God can create. The real cause? If God created everything, then it is ultimately His fault. He gave people the ability to choose, right? Why would a good God do that if He knew people where going to make wrong choices?It seems pretty normal to me, David being God's choice.

#4 is in direct contradiction with #1 Just the possibility of it, stop mis-quoting me. It is not a cop-out, it is a very real truth. I explained it in several ways. That is exactly what I am doing. I have explained that several times also. I don't know God that well, to expect more or less. I do my best to not put "God in a box". I only really know what God has done in my life, and life in general, and then compare it to the stories in the bible, and I can see clearly the distinct possibility that God did in fact choose David.

Because after my first encounter with the Holy Spirit I went from maybe understanding 20% of the bible, to understanding 80% of it.Now I am the person that I used to make fun of.

It is not what we perceive that is in contradiction, it is you claiming what can not be God's choice. You cannot know God's choice, if you cannot know what God perceives.Is God good, yes or no? I have done no such thing. in [msg-113] I explain that it is possible. Just like your scenerio is possible. But for me, I am taking a leap of faith and just believing the story happened, and try to learn from what I perceive as the morals. I am not speculating. I have pointed out in several ways that God always done things to us in llife that we perceive as bad, yet they turn out good.
I am claiming that we cannot know what God perceives as good or bad, and that we do not understnad His ways, so therefor it is a possibility that God could have chosen David, and to think that He didn't because David was a "bad choice"(according to our perception) would be a mistake IMO. Your trying to let God off the hook or something, and I don't think God needs that. The only way we can let God off the hook is by loving others.I look around at life, my own and others, and I see stories like David happening all the time. That leads me to think that it is entirely possible that God could have chosen David. It has nothing to do with what "might be true". Yes, and I haven't done that, only been mis-understood. You can retract that statement now.This whole thread was about David being Guilty, which I agreed to. Then someone tried to blame God, because God choose David, which I disagreed too. Then you came in and said God didn't choose David, trying to let God off the hook.Tell me, since you think it is possible that God did choose David, would it then be God's fault for all the calmity?Also if you were giving a sermon on this story, what would be your moral of the story?

Your empirical method is highly flawed. There is no possible way to conduct a controlled experiment on the Holy Spirit. At best it will only be subjective.How we interpret the Holy Spirit is up to us, and who we are, were we are at with God. All of us are babies in the Lord, and as God brings us up levels, more things are reveled to us, so we can see our mistakes. Being Spirit filled does not make you perfect.I have seen several times were a room full of people will all feel the same thing from the Holy Spirit. I have had this conversation out with schrafinator, and she refuses to believe this is impossible.The Spirit may be telling us all the same thing, but how we interpret it can be entirely different. The only way you can prove it to yourself, is when the Spirit decides to be with you, then you'll know in an instant.Even after experiencing the Spirit, we still struggle with our own sinful bodies. Paul explains this in great detail in the bible. All of what was written about it, was made very clear to me, the seconds after experiencing the Spirit.

You wrote: I guess I am not getting your point, kindly express it differently. I have done neither, we are just discussing the topic, and examining all the possibilities. I don't expect there to be a clear answer.And you still didn't answer my other question: Tell me, since you think it is possible that God did choose David, would it then be God's fault for all the calmity?

But this is what I've been trying to express to you all along, that line of thinking is wrong. If God created everything, including "bad" and God is good, then bad is good to God.There are many stories in the bible where God does to us, what we perceive as bad, but the bible still tells us that God is a good God.So it is plain to see that things that we see as bad, are good to God.
So you can't use the good-bad idea as a reason to think that God didn't choose David. We assume God is good, because the bible tells us so. If there was no bible, I would be hard pressed to even think that God was all good. He didn't choose them, but He allowed them to be there, and knew before time began that they would be there. So just like all positions in the world, they are there by God's doing. Is God still responsible?