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Member (Idle past 2541 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Why do right? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5942 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
ana writes: Religion keeps me so a'tremblin' at the gates of Hell that survival is all I can think of You say this with a smiley so i am not sure what you believe. However I did find your comment that religion allows you to survive interesting if not alarming. Can you elaborate?
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5980 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
I was being sarcastic, Iceage. I am implying that I need God to tell me to feel empathy...which I do, but he has already naturally given me that ability as part of my moral compass. I am just so unusual as to attribute this to Him rather than a natural survival instinct. I believe morality has more to do with the spirit than the survival of the body.
Ringo has a good Sarcasm Detector; sorry for the confusion. Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
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Doddy Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 563 From: Brisbane, Australia Joined: |
Anastasia writes: I believe morality has more to do with the spirit than the survival of the body. What could possibly prove to you that this is not the case? How about, showing that animals, which I assume you don't believe have a God-fearing spirit, have attributes that we would associate with morality? To quote Sam Harris in his review of Francis Collins' book:
quote: "Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5980 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Interesting, but you can't prove that mice, chimps. and oher animals which we inhumanely use for these studies, have ever felt guilt when they did not do these things, and have ever had a choice to do otherwise.
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Doddy Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 563 From: Brisbane, Australia Joined: |
We also can't prove that our fellow human beings consciously choose the moral options either.
Did you also read my similar post in another thread? Edited by Doddy Curumehtar, : No reason given. "Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5980 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Doddy writes: We also can't prove that our fellow human beings consciously choose the moral options either. I have seen the entirety of the similar thread. Please tell me what you mean by 'moral options'. Oh, wait, you are referring to your little 'Der Mensch kann was er will' ? Ok, fine, here we go again. Hitler had no choice, Mother Teresa had no choice, both did what their Personal Moral Chooser Function told them to do.
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5942 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Ana writes: Ringo has a good Sarcasm Detector Oh good. My detector is out for repair.
Ana writes: he has already naturally given me that ability as part of my moral compass Keep in mind, you have to integrate into your theory that numerous "lower" animals have what we would call a moral compass in lesser and varying degrees.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5980 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Iceage writes: Keep in mind, you have to integrate into your theory that numerous "lower" animals have what we would call a moral compass in lesser and varying degrees. In another thread, Doddy Curumehtar has said just this. He has shown examples of chimps and mice exhibiting what we consider moral behavior. I myself have seen the way my birds react to the death of their mates. I have no proof or evidence that they had a choice in this behavior, or that they felt any guilt when they did not respend to the death of their mates. In fact, a non-response on the part of a bird would be evidence to us that they had no empathy, and not that they had a choice and chose not to empathize.
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Doddy Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 563 From: Brisbane, Australia Joined: |
Anastasia writes: I have no proof or evidence that they had a choice in this behavior Neither do you have such proof for humans, such as criminals. It may be that they chose not to feel for their victims through pure callousness (which raises the argument of why they do that), or it may be that they can't feel empathy due to the structure of their brains. We really can't infer what emotions a human or animal is feeling unless we know for sure their brain works like ours. Now, I would argue however that it is likely that apes do have such emotions as remorse and guilt, although maybe not to the extent that humans do, because they share many key features of our prefrontal cortex (the part of the brain consistently shown to be involved in feelings of remorse and making moral choices). Anyway, this is getting into animal consciousness, so is getting off topic somewhat. "Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
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nyenye Inactive Member |
We are the prisoners of our own fantasies Do you mean kind of like brainwashing throughout the generations...? I wonder what the world would be like if we were taught to have no guilt, no response upon our actions... Lets say that a religion must kill children or Sacrafice another human being, to do the right thing for their God, we see it wrong and as murder... Good question I confused myself!
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5980 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Doddy writes: Neither do you have such proof for humans, such as criminals. It may be that they chose not to feel for their victims through pure callousness (which raises the argument of why they do that), or it may be that they can't feel empathy due to the structure of their brains. We really can't infer what emotions a human or animal is feeling unless we know for sure their brain works like ours You don't have proof that you feel guilt? Are you not ever a criminal yoursef? Please do not be so high and mighty. You know nothing of criminals to judge that their brain works any differently. If you are reffering to serial killers, well, that is obvious. If they don't know right from wrong, they can't be judged, yes? They are considered insane. Those who are found to be sane are considered to have had a choice.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5980 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Nyeusigrube writes: We are the prisoners of our own fantasies Do you mean kind of like brainwashing throughout the generations...? I wonder what the world would be like if we were taught to have no guilt, no response upon our actions... Lets say that a religion must kill children or Sacrafice another human being, to do the right thing for their God, we see it wrong and as murder... Good question I confused myself! In four and a half sentences you have confused yourself? Why not hit 'Reset Fields', start again, use quote brackets, and if you are still confused, delete? Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
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nyenye Inactive Member |
Thinking about other things that lead from what I stated, they go off subject though, sorry.
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Doddy Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 563 From: Brisbane, Australia Joined: |
Anastasia writes: You know nothing of criminals to judge that their brain works any differently. Their brain must work differently to non-criminals, because not every brain commands its body to commit crimes. We are even more in the dark with animals, as we have not experienced what it is like to be one. Any assumption that they do or don't have a choice is speculation until the problem of consciousness is understood more fully. What we do know however is that animals, especially apes, often act like moral humans would. "Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5942 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Ana writes: I myself have seen the way my birds react to the death of their mates. Can you elaborate on this or did I miss it in a prior post? Birds can be quite intelligent - of course they can also be bird brains.
Ana writes: I have no proof or evidence that they had a choice in this behavior, or that they felt any guilt when they did not respond to the death of their mates Sounds like you focusing in on choice and guilt as the unique component of human morality that is missing in animals, is that it? As far as feeling guilty goes I know when my dog would do something "wrong" like peeing on the floor or getting into the cake left on the table she would exhibit mannerism that one can only attribute to guilt.
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