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Author Topic:   Is Science a Religion?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 313 (381492)
01-31-2007 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Quetzal
01-31-2007 7:31 AM


Re: Defining religion
Yes. Much better wording.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 29 by Quetzal, posted 01-31-2007 7:31 AM Quetzal has not replied

Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 32 of 313 (381536)
01-31-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Chiroptera
01-31-2007 9:20 AM


Re: Defining religion
I have already explained to you that science is not just a way of describing what is happening in the universe. Rather, science seeks to "explain" what is happening in the universe. The example I gave was gravity. The Theory of Gravity does not merely say that objects fall and we don’t know why. The theory says that all bodies that contain a mass will attract other bodies. Where is there a proof for this concept? Do you really "believe" that anything with mass has an attractive force? Maybe there is another "explanation" for this phenomenon.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 33 of 313 (381542)
01-31-2007 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Archer Opteryx
01-26-2007 2:18 PM


Re: Why must the teapot be a religion, anyway?
I have a good question for you. Why do people who believe in science continue to assert that it is not a religion? What is wrong with saying that science is a religion? Obviously, the people who involve themselves with science are trying to avoid religion. As for your statement that scientist are not all godless, why is it that Evolution is completely undisputed among the scientist. Surely you agree that the idea that human beings evolved from other forms of life clashes with almost every religion.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 01-31-2007 4:24 PM Open MInd has not replied
 Message 36 by crashfrog, posted 01-31-2007 3:20 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 42 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-31-2007 4:28 PM Open MInd has replied
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Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 34 of 313 (381543)
01-31-2007 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Doddy
01-30-2007 2:20 AM


Re: Science requires the assumption of naturalism
The evidence for a supernatural being is the existence of this world.
Nobody (not even the scientists) claims that this world always existed. If that is the case, when, why, and how did this world come into existence? The greatest physicists of our time have been quoted as saying that the laws of physics must not have existed during the time of the Big Bang. What then did exist? Maybe something that is supernatural. If that is true, who says this supernatural being that started the world is not controlling it every second that we speak?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 313 (381546)
01-31-2007 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Open MInd
01-31-2007 4:12 PM


Re: Why must the teapot be a religion, anyway?
As for your statement that scientist are not all godless, why is it that Evolution is completely undisputed among the scientist. Surely you agree that the idea that human beings evolved from other forms of life clashes with almost every religion.
First, Evolution certainly doesn't clash with Christianity. I am a Christian and yet have no problems accepting Evolution (since that is a fact and not even open to question anymore) or that the Theory of Evolution is the best possible explanation so far for what the evidence shows.
Nor am I alone. Evolution is not an issue among any Christians except those in the Cult of Ignorance.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 36 of 313 (381506)
01-31-2007 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Open MInd
01-31-2007 4:12 PM


Re: Why must the teapot be a religion, anyway?
Why do people who believe in science continue to assert that it is not a religion?
Because it isn't.
What is wrong with saying that science is a religion?
Because that's not what it is.
Obviously, the people who involve themselves with science are trying to avoid religion.
No, they're trying to avoid falsehood.
As for your statement that scientist are not all godless, why is it that Evolution is completely undisputed among the scientist.
Because evolution is an accurate model supported by the evidence.
Surely you agree that the idea that human beings evolved from other forms of life clashes with almost every religion.
Why should that be surprising? Religion, to a surprising degree, is founded on bullshit. Scientific models like evolution, on the other hand, are founded on evidence. No surprise then that religion would find itself in conflict with what is true. How can you possibly arrive at the truth by making things up?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Open MInd, posted 01-31-2007 4:12 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Open MInd, posted 01-31-2007 3:25 PM crashfrog has replied

Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 37 of 313 (381507)
01-31-2007 3:21 PM


The Popularity of Science.
Why is science so popular if few people truly understand it? Why is it that so many people choose to reject there own religions and join the believers of the scientific method. I have a reason why many people choose to believe in science over other religions. Many people on this board have claimed that science can’t be a religion because it has no rules or customs. People have also claimed that there is no reason for a scientist to lie, but religious leaders would lie for fame and money. Maybe, the reason why science is such a popular religion is because it has no rules or customs. If I were a sinner, members of my religion told me that I was condemned, what is a better religion to turn to than science? Science is a popular religion because it requires its believers to do absolutely nothing.

Replies to this message:
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Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 38 of 313 (381509)
01-31-2007 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by crashfrog
01-31-2007 3:20 PM


Re: Why must the teapot be a religion, anyway?
You don’t think gravity is made up. Did you ever see "the force" between to objects with your own eyes? Scientists have made up quite a few things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by crashfrog, posted 01-31-2007 3:20 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by crashfrog, posted 01-31-2007 4:04 PM Open MInd has replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 39 of 313 (381510)
01-31-2007 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Open MInd
01-31-2007 3:21 PM


Re: The Popularity of Science.
Why is science so popular if few people truly understand it?
If you're reading this message, you're looking at one reason science is so popular. Unlike religion, science gets results.
Science is a popular religion because it requires its believers to do absolutely nothing.
I sense you're attempting the "throw as much shit at the wall as possible and see what sticks" strategy. As a suggestion, why don't you sit down and think through one really good argument and present it instead of peppering us with things you must know can't possibly be true.
If science is an open license for debauchery and bad behavior, then why are so many of the world's incorrigable rogues and villians so thouroughly religious?

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 313 (381512)
01-31-2007 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Open MInd
01-31-2007 4:06 PM


Re: Defining religion
quote:
The theory says that all bodies that contain a mass will attract other bodies.
Sure. But this is a tentative statement. The theory says that all bodies that have mass will attract other bodies according to the given equation. But scientists will then say that so far they have not seen an exception to the theory. Or they will say that there are some exceptions, and they are working on how to resolve these exceptions.
Theories are artificial constructs and acknowledged as such. They are proposed as ways of describing the behavior of phenomena, and then it is checked whether the phenomena actually behave in the described manner. If they do, then we tentatively say that the theory appears to describe the universe accurately. And we will continue to say this until we observe exceptions to the theory.
-
quote:
Where is there a proof for this concept?
Of course not. But who cares? No one is claiming that the theory is definitely "true". All anyone is really claiming is that as far as we know, and as far as we have seen to date, is that the theory describes the behavior of phenomena reasonably well.
-
quote:
Do you really "believe" that anything with mass has an attractive force?
I recognize that there seems to be a certain regularity in the universe, and that modelling an attractive force due to mass gives reasonably accurate predictions as to what I may expect in most experiments.
-
quote:
Maybe there is another "explanation" for this phenomenon.
Actually, there is. Newton described the attraction of gravity as an intrinsic attractive force due to mass. Einstein described gravity as a curvature of space-time which causes geodesics in a Lorentzian 4-manifold to deviate from the path we would otherwise expect in 3 space and 1 time dimensional space.
And we already know that Einstein might be "wrong". It is possible that a reconciliation of General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics will result in a mathematical model that will drastically change the conceptions in which we look at GR.

This world can take my money and time/ But it sure can't take my soul. -- Joe Ely

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Open MInd, posted 01-31-2007 7:23 PM Chiroptera has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 41 of 313 (381532)
01-31-2007 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Open MInd
01-31-2007 3:25 PM


Re: Why must the teapot be a religion, anyway?
Did you ever see "the force" between to objects with your own eyes?
Yeah, just now. I dropped a spoon. And there was the force of gravity, pulling it to the floor!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Open MInd, posted 01-31-2007 3:25 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Open MInd, posted 01-31-2007 7:28 PM crashfrog has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 313 (381547)
01-31-2007 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Open MInd
01-31-2007 4:12 PM


Re: Why must the teapot be a religion, anyway?
Obviously, the people who involve themselves with science are trying to avoid religion.
I involve myself with science and I'm not trying to avoid religion.
What is wrong with saying that science is a religion?
What is wrong with saying that a dog is a cat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Open MInd, posted 01-31-2007 4:12 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Open MInd, posted 01-31-2007 7:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 43 of 313 (381548)
01-31-2007 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Open MInd
01-31-2007 3:21 PM


Re: The Popularity of Science.
Maybe, the reason why science is such a popular religion is because it has no rules or customs. If I were a sinner, members of my religion told me that I was condemned, what is a better religion to turn to than science? Science is a popular religion because it requires its believers to do absolutely nothing.
oh great, another one of these. a person who can only do the right thing for fear of punishment.
science requires that you hold things in a tentative manner. the difference between science and religion is largely that of morality. Religion tells you how to behave. Science says squat, because morality (except for studying patterns of it and other things) has squat to do with science. Much like science says squat about the existence of god--it just doesn't care.
finally, science rests on facts. Fact--earth is spherical. Fact--the sun is in the center. Fact--evolution happens. Fact--the earth is old. Fact--every body of mass interacts with other bodies of mass. Fact--the earth is warming. Fact--people die. Fact--aluminum is a metal. Fact-- . . .. Need I go on?
From these facts, we build frameworks for understanding. Evolution happens. okay, how does it happen? why does it happen?
and please, stop misrepresenting science.

Question. Always Question.
" . . .and some nights I just pray to the god of sex and drugs and rock'n'roll"--meatloaf
Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 44 of 313 (381559)
01-31-2007 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Open MInd
01-31-2007 4:12 PM


Re: Why must the teapot be a religion, anyway?
Open Mind writes:
What is wrong with saying that science is a religion?
Nothing at all! As someone already noted, cats are dogs, so why can't science be religion! I really think you're on to something! Why can't my bike be considered a car? Why can't my storage shed be considered a house? Why can't all my scribblings be considered great literature? Why can't words mean whatever we want them to mean?
Obviously, the people who involve themselves with science are trying to avoid religion.
Exactly, and never mind Francis Collins, evangelical Christian and head of the Human Genome Project, or Nobel prize winner in physics and protestant Christian Charles Townes, or any of the countless other scientists and believers in God. I'm with you, brother. On the road to salvation we must trample all opposing facts beneath our boots.
As for your statement that scientist are not all godless, why is it that Evolution is completely undisputed among the scientist.
Yes, we must condemn Godless evolution. And Godless physics, Godless geology, Godless chemistry, Godless biology, Godless cosmology, Godless plumbing, Godless sports, Godless car dealerships, Godless doorknobs...
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 313 (381563)
01-31-2007 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Open MInd
01-31-2007 3:21 PM


Science seems more ethical than Religion
Maybe, the reason why science is such a popular religion is because it has no rules or customs.
Actually science as a profession certainly DOES have rules and customs. One is honesty, something that seems to be woefully lacking in religion.
In Science, if someone is caught falsifying data, even if they are only shown to be ignoring data that might falsify their position, they WILL be sanctioned.
That simply is not seen in Religion in general and specifically in Christianity. Christianity as a profession, does not sanction all of the pastors and clergy who regularly falsify data as well as ignore data that falsifies their position. Christians do not sanction and punish all the Televangelists and Pastors that deny Evolution, hide the evidence that shows the flood never happened, that the Exodus never happened, that the Conquest of Canaan never happened as described in the Bible.
Unfortunately, it does seem that on the whole, Science is far more ethical than Religion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Open MInd, posted 01-31-2007 3:21 PM Open MInd has not replied

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