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Author Topic:   Theistic Evolution
subbie
Member (Idle past 1281 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 42 of 58 (382036)
02-02-2007 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by randman
02-02-2007 9:42 PM


Re: Still no support for yourself, eh?
Gosh, I think we made more progress in that last post that in the entire thread.
The initial point that I made was that there's nothing inherently contradictory between the idea of evolution by natural selection and a divine being. You seem to agree with that. If I am reading you correctly, your only argument with that idea is that it leads to certain logical contradictions if one assumes that the divine being was trying to create perfection in life. However, of course, it's quite possible for one to believe in a divine being that was not trying to create perfection in life.
You say that you, as a christian, used to believe in the ToE but gave as your reasons for rejecting it that you concluded that the theory was a sham. This suggests that you didn't see anything contradictory between the ToE and your religion.
However, you also claim that you believe the ToE excludes a priori god as being a causal agent. This seems inconsistent. Do you mean to say that you believe it excludes your interpretation of the christian god, or that it excludes any possiblity of any divine being?
The ToE claims that descent with modification, as I outlined it in my post 19 of this thread, accounts for the diversity of life on this planet. Please explain what in the theory is inconsistent with the idea that a divine being directed that evolution to ensure that man was the end result? Certainly there's nothing in the ToE that supports such a notion, but what is there in it that contradicts the notion?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by randman, posted 02-02-2007 9:42 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by randman, posted 02-02-2007 11:17 PM subbie has replied
 Message 44 by GDR, posted 02-02-2007 11:37 PM subbie has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1281 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 45 of 58 (382055)
02-03-2007 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by randman
02-02-2007 11:17 PM


Re: not be contrarian
For what it's worth, I don't consider that post to be contrarian, simply illuminating your ideas.
Well, first your first statement is wrong since the first life form could not have arrived via descent with modification. It's no use to say that is separate from ToE because that also makes the statement wrong since ToE does not explain life on this planet, but just lays out the potential for how life developed after life came to this planet.
That is exactly correct. The ToE does not explain how live on this planet began. It only explains how it evolved.
Secondly, as is amply clear by evos' objecting to ID theory, evolutionism does reject the concept that God can be causal to life developing and being here on this planet. That idea is considered a threat to science and as unscientific by evos, by definition.
Scientists reject ID as a scientific theory because there is no evidence for it, because it is not necessary to invoke it to explain anything, because it doesn't explain anything anyway, and because it invokes a supernatural agent. However, this is not the same as saying that they reject the idea of a divine being's involvement in the process as an article of one's religious faith.
It's important to keep the distinction in mind. Science speaks to what we can observe, but it says nothing about matters of faith. As several people have said here repeatedly, most scientists in fact accept the ToE and hold to their faith as well. That fact would seem to me to be compelling proof that one can reasonably reconcile at least some views of christianity with the ToE.
It is unscientific, for the reasons I discussed above, but no scientist views it as a threat to science so long as it is discussed only in terms of a spiritual belief. The reason it is often viewed as a threat is because, to the scientist, it falsely portrays itself as science, and may cause people to misunderstand the true nature of scientific investigation.
Now, having said that, I understand that you do not view it that way. For purposes of this thread, I have no desire to argue that particular point with you. I can't tell you the number of places that I have read scientists say that they have no quarrel with ID insofar as someone wants to believe it on faith.
I'm not saying that science will ever accept the existence of a supreme being from a scientific point of view. However, I am saying that science does not say that a supreme being is impossible. That question is outside the purview of science as it is practiced.
Saying that the ToE is inconsistent with the existence of god is rather like saying it's inconsistent with the idea of beauty. It is completely consistent with either idea, because both are outside of the realm in which science operates.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by randman, posted 02-02-2007 11:17 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by randman, posted 02-03-2007 1:08 AM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1281 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 47 of 58 (382067)
02-03-2007 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by randman
02-03-2007 1:08 AM


Re: not be contrarian
If that's the case, then why do scientists and evo advocates make dumb comments like a personal God is not real because of science,
Anyone who says such a thing is speaking from personal conviction, not from scientific proof. To the extent that they believe science supports them, I agree that it is a dumb comment. And wrong.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by randman, posted 02-03-2007 1:08 AM randman has not replied

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