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Author Topic:   Is Science a Religion?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 91 of 313 (381898)
02-02-2007 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Rob
02-02-2007 9:27 AM


Re: Yes... science is a religion
Rob writes:
Well, then you must be looking for something else. You didn't walk into Walmart by accident.
You have your reasons. And reasons are not facts, they are religions. That is the point.
My "reason" for walking through Wal-Mart might not have anything to do with Wal-mart at all. It might just be the shortest distance between two points. (We used to have a Wal-Mart here that was attached to a mall. I walked through it on my way to the bookstore and never bought a thing.)
It's interesting that you wasted almost your entire post on a "you-guys-don't-bother-thinking" rant instead of actually addressing my point:
We don't have to make a choice at all.
Science doesn't have to buy anything from the God store.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Rob, posted 02-02-2007 9:27 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Rob, posted 02-02-2007 8:02 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 97 by Rob, posted 02-02-2007 9:47 PM ringo has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 92 of 313 (381906)
02-02-2007 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Chiroptera
02-02-2007 9:23 AM


Re: On mass.
thanks for the lesson in that.
this is the kind of thing I miss by not taking physics.
apparently, mass is a lot wierder than I thought.

Question. Always Question.
" . . .and some nights I just pray to the god of sex and drugs and rock'n'roll"--meatloaf
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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 93 of 313 (381982)
02-02-2007 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Open MInd
02-02-2007 10:31 AM


Re: Religious Leader?
If you think I don't know what Deism is, can you please give your definition of Deism.
The standard definitions are fine.
de·ism -noun 1. belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism).
2. belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.
Deists can use logic and science to understand the {world\universe\existence}, but science cannot use Deism (or any theology or antitheology) to understand the {world\universe\existence} because the concept of god is not testable.
Enjoy

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 94 of 313 (382000)
02-02-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
02-02-2007 11:32 AM


Re: Yes... science is a religion
We don't have to make a choice at all.
That would be a choice. Otherwise you either could not, or you would have to.
So you are correct, you don't have to. But since you choose not to, then you are not ignorant of God, you simply choose not to know about Him.
And that is precisely where I wanted to go with this. Thank you for cooperating. It is not that you cannot know god, it is that you do not want to, because you prefer to believe in and worship a God of your own making. You just don't call whatever you want to believe truth.
And you are right also about that... your belief is not the truth. It is only a religion.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 02-02-2007 11:32 AM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Chiroptera, posted 02-02-2007 8:42 PM Rob has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 313 (382006)
02-02-2007 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Rob
02-02-2007 8:02 PM


Sign of a bad analogy.
You know, when you start wasting time arguing about the analogy, it means that the analogy isn't making the point you want and you should probably move on.

This world can take my money and time/ But it sure can't take my soul. -- Joe Ely

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Rob, posted 02-02-2007 8:02 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Rob, posted 02-02-2007 9:10 PM Chiroptera has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 96 of 313 (382015)
02-02-2007 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Chiroptera
02-02-2007 8:42 PM


Re: Sign of a bad analogy.
You know, when you start wasting time arguing about the analogy, it means that the analogy isn't making the point you want and you should probably move on.
Maybe you're right... but since it was Ringo's analogy (or was it crash's?) you should address them not me. They were unsuccesfully using the analogy to refute my point. I was only pointing out the flaw in the analogy.
But thanks for playing "Let's do everything in our power to not make a deal"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Chiroptera, posted 02-02-2007 8:42 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Chiroptera, posted 02-02-2007 10:15 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 97 of 313 (382030)
02-02-2007 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
02-02-2007 11:32 AM


Re: Yes... science is a religion
Ringo:
Science doesn't have to buy anything from the God store.
Science cannot do anything. It doesn't have an opinion. It only tells the truth. It has no agenda.
What I am saying, is that anyone who uses science to defend against a belief in God, is pretending to be agnostic (as a scientist should be), but by taking a position, they proove that they are not.
A scientist is supposedly objective. One seeking to let the evidence lead him to the truth.
It is the people using science for their own agendas who chose to buy or not to buy in the God store. That's where the individual worldviews (religions) come into play. That is where 'facts' become interpreted so as to impart a meaning that is presupposed by the individual.
Science, left to itself only declares the glory of God. Any objective observer (a true scientist) will follow the way right to the truth, and the life.
That is why people like Francis Crick say things like, "We must constantly keep in the front of our mind, that these things are not designed, but evolved"(paraphrased).
Why Francis?
Why... must... we do that?
Why can't we just look at the evidence and see what it is telling us? Why create a whole institution (modern science) to deny the obvious in terms of origins, under the false pretense that it is established to understand reality?
The earliest scientists suffered from no such delusions. Back then, the early modern scientists were theists, and it was the 'religious dictators' in the Church who inhibited understanding in many instances. Now it is the establishment called 'science' who have become the skeptics. Why is that?
Because science has become a religion.
Does anyone really not understand what I just said? Or are you determined to deny everything, even at the expense of your own reputation as an intelligent and honest participant, in a debate that has extreme consequences for all humanity?
Maybe you're just looking out for number one... If so, just say so!
But if you do ever admit that, just know that that is conversion. That's when you'll begin to hear God's voice.
As for the material universe declaring the glory of God, just consider what Jesus said to the 'religious dictators' of His day when his disciples and the crowd declared Jesus to be God:
Luke 19:38 "Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!" 39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!" 40 "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 02-02-2007 11:32 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 02-02-2007 10:43 PM Rob has replied
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 1:05 AM Rob has replied
 Message 105 by ReverendDG, posted 02-03-2007 1:38 AM Rob has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 313 (382038)
02-02-2007 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Rob
02-02-2007 9:10 PM


Re: Sign of a bad analogy.
As your father used to say, "I don't care who started it!"

This world can take my money and time/ But it sure can't take my soul. -- Joe Ely

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Rob, posted 02-02-2007 9:10 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Rob, posted 02-02-2007 10:42 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 99 of 313 (382042)
02-02-2007 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Chiroptera
02-02-2007 10:15 PM


Re: Sign of a bad analogy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Chiroptera, posted 02-02-2007 10:15 PM Chiroptera has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 100 of 313 (382043)
02-02-2007 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Rob
02-02-2007 9:47 PM


Re: Yes... science is a religion
Does anyone really not understand what I just said? Or are you determined to deny everything, even at the expense of your own reputation as an intelligent and honest participant, in a debate that has extreme consequences for all humanity?
What you said is nonsense, we understand it fully. It is also totally irrelevant, unimportant and inane.
There is no evidence of a designer or of anything being designed.
Sorry, perhaps when someone finally produces some such evidence that stands up to scientific rigor it can be considered.
Until then science simply takes no position.
Man evolved.
That is fact.
You or I or anyone else is still free to hold a position of belief. We may even believe that GOD directed the world we see around us. That is irrelevant to science. Science simply investigates the HOW of what happened and what will happen.
If we believe GOD did it, science only tells us How God Did It.
But that is a belief. That is all. A belief.
And the consequences of not holding that belief?
None.
Absolutely none.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Rob, posted 02-02-2007 9:47 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Rob, posted 02-02-2007 11:43 PM jar has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 101 of 313 (382052)
02-02-2007 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by jar
02-02-2007 10:43 PM


Re: Yes... science is a religion
jar:
Man evolved.
That is fact.
And the consequences of not holding that belief?
None.
Absolutely none.
Now that's funny!
I knew you were an 'absolute' kind of guy the whole time...
Good for you... and your 'fundamemtal' position.
Ever heard of G.K. Chesterton's 'Suicide of thought'?
I saw a bumper sticker yesturday that said, "Death to extremists". I asked the guy, "isn't that a bit extreme?"
He laughed and said, My wife had it made for me because my whole family has become born again Christian, and I am a moderate."
I asked him, "Are you extremely moderate?"
He smiled and said, "No... I am moderately moderate.'
"Hence the belief that extremists should die", I said. "A moderate can't tolerate extremism now can he?"
The guy (who's name is Jim) was building a deck and I was delivering the lumber. He acknowleged the dilemma with a chuckle. He's on his way... he can handle it...
Do you see the irony jar? Can you handle it?
How can 'fundamentalism' (extremism) be 'the problem' with the world?
To posit that is a fundamental and extreme position.
So, fundamentalism is not the problem. The problem is with dishonest fundamentalists, who say they are moderates. They are hedging something. A secret sin they will not compromise... but it is no secret to me. So it is certainly not secret to God.
The consequences are obvious: Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 02-02-2007 10:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-03-2007 12:32 AM Rob has replied
 Message 108 by jar, posted 02-03-2007 10:27 AM Rob has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 313 (382058)
02-03-2007 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Rob
02-02-2007 11:43 PM


Re: Yes... science is a religion
I saw a bumper sticker yesturday that said, "Death to extremists". I asked the guy, "isn't that a bit extreme?"
That sounds about the way it works. I especially like when those who talk about tolerance end up foaming at the mouth and yelling epithets in the name of tolerance.
He laughed and said, My wife had it made for me because my whole family has become born again Christian, and I am a moderate."
I asked him, "Are you extremely moderate?"
He smiled and said, "No... I am moderately moderate.'
"Hence the belief that extremists should die", I said. "A moderate can't tolerate extremism now can he?"
That's hilarious... That must have been a sobering conversation.
Do you see the irony?
How could I miss it?

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Rob, posted 02-02-2007 11:43 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 103 of 313 (382063)
02-03-2007 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Hyroglyphx
02-03-2007 12:32 AM


Re: Yes... science is a religion
That's hilarious... That must have been a sobering conversation.
Actually it was suprisingly lighthearted... The first thing I did was laugh and tell him I liked the bumpersticker. And I did! It was refreshingly honest you know? He did not try to hide the fact that it was not merely ironic, but also an obvious contradiction.
I told him that I am a born again Christian myself, and I got the distinct impression that he was at one time very acidic in his criticisms. But he had calmed down or something. I didn't try to preach to the guy, and although I could tell he wanted to talk, he was nervous as well. And we both had to get back to work anyway.
In situations like that I feel no reason to jump under the skin and explode the guy. He is well on his way... you can just tell... you know what I mean?
When someone get's it, you can tell. If they don't you can shock em good. And if they don't want to (the worst kind) you can only pray.
Anyway, we did some real small talk about privatization of ideas and relativism. He was following the concepts with ease.
It is one of those moments I won't forget.. like the guy who told me elsewhere in my travels that he was waiting for the aliens to show up and set us all straight. He was very concerned with the state of the world (can't blame him). I said half jokingly, 'They already did show up, two thousand years ago. In the most sophisticated vessel in the known universe (a human body). And we crucified him.'
I couldn't have planned that you know Nem? It just came to me...
That was another unforgetable moment. The look on his face was priceless! He got it! And the next time I was there, as we unloaded the lumber, we had a great conversation inwhich he was very skeptical, but also very reasonable. Something had turned within him. It's always a miracle...
I left him with a Ravi Zacharius CD called 'The Loss of Truth and a Proposal for it's Recovery'. I had given him some of the arguments already durring our talk, and he wanted to hear it for himself. haven't seen him since, but he works as a carpenter in an area that I deliver to often, so I will.
It happens in the strangest ways...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-03-2007 12:32 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 104 of 313 (382065)
02-03-2007 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Rob
02-02-2007 9:47 PM


Rob writes:
What I am saying, is that anyone who uses science to defend against a belief in God, is pretending to be agnostic....
But nobody is using science "to defend against a belief in God".
People from any religious background, with any kind of belief in God can do science. How can that be trying "to defend against a belief in God"?
It is the people using science for their own agendas who chose to buy or not to buy in the God store.
That's not what we're discussing here though. The topic is whether or not science itself is a religion - not whether or not it can be abused. People with their own agenda can treat science as a religion, just as they can treat money or football as a religion. That doesn't mean that money, footbal or science is a religion.
Now it is the establishment called 'science' who have become the skeptics. Why is that?
Because it is the very nature of science to be skeptical. Science always has more questions than answers. Religion, on the other hand, has answers - but most of them are wrong.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Rob, posted 02-02-2007 9:47 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 1:44 AM ringo has replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 105 of 313 (382069)
02-03-2007 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Rob
02-02-2007 9:47 PM


Re: Yes... science is a religion
What I am saying, is that anyone who uses science to defend against a belief in God, is pretending to be agnostic (as a scientist should be), but by taking a position, they proove that they are not.[/qs] this is what you don't seem to understand, the logical position to god in science should be, god does not exist, due to lack of evidence, in order for god to exist it has to be shown to exist, until then god has no meaning in science
this is how it has always been, its the default position from a logical standpoint
It is the people using science for their own agendas who chose to buy or not to buy in the God store. That's where the individual worldviews (religions) come into play. That is where 'facts' become interpreted so as to impart a meaning that is presupposed by the individual.
yes and a lot of people look at the evidence and don't see evidence for god, your job is to show there is evidence, evidence has to be objective and seperate from the mind, everything is formed by the mind all science is interpreted, now consistent interpretation is what honest science does
Science, left to itself only declares the glory of God. Any objective observer (a true scientist) will follow the way right to the truth, and the life.
please provide evidence this is true, so far its a faulty argument, since you show no reason WHY people should agree with this
That is why people like Francis Crick say things like, "We must constantly keep in the front of our mind, that these things are not designed, but evolved"(paraphrased).
because the human mind can't always concieve of the idea of things evolving, namely its too amazing to be true to people
Why can't we just look at the evidence and see what it is telling us? Why create a whole institution (modern science) to deny the obvious in terms of origins, under the false pretense that it is established to understand reality?
we are looking at the evidence, you just don't like where it leads us, you want it to lead to god when it doesn't.
i don't know what you are talking about, this just seems like the ol "science is athiestic and incompatible with religion" argument, its a a very stiff horse to beat don'y you think?
The earliest scientists suffered from no such delusions. Back then, the early modern scientists were theists, and it was the 'religious dictators' in the Church who inhibited understanding in many instances. Now it is the establishment called 'science' who have become the skeptics. Why is that?
people are more skeptical because you need to be, in order to have proper science that works, or you might as well call astrology science and be done with it
Because science has become a religion.
you have no clue what a religion is.
Does anyone really not understand what I just said? Or are you determined to deny everything, even at the expense of your own reputation as an intelligent and honest participant, in a debate that has extreme consequences for all humanity?
you said nothing, your posts are inane and meaningless. i have yet to see one well thoughtout argument that holds any water. by the way pulling out the doommongering card is a bit sad don't you think?
what logical argument do you have that science should point to god and not something else?
But if you do ever admit that, just know that that is conversion. That's when you'll begin to hear God's voice.
god may exist but i don't think he gives a crap anymore
As for the material universe declaring the glory of God, just consider what Jesus said to the 'religious dictators' of His day when his disciples and the crowd declared Jesus to be God:
it doesn't say that jesus is god, it says blessing to jesus, who they think is the messiah, or king in the name of god, namely yahweh, you have to really twist the authors words to get anything like what you are claiming
nore is the verse talking about the universe, its talking about praising jesus who they think will be the messiah in gods name, and jesus tells the pharisees they shouldn't be silented over praising god in heaven

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Rob, posted 02-02-2007 9:47 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 1:56 AM ReverendDG has replied

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