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Author Topic:   Is Science a Religion?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 106 of 313 (382070)
02-03-2007 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
02-03-2007 1:05 AM


Science has less questions and less answers
Because it is the very nature of science to be skeptical.
Only since Rene Descartes, Emanuel Kant, and David Hume in the modern sense of the term. And I agree that skepticism is healthy as long as it does not devolve into mere cynicism, which we have all, at times, been prone to manifesting.
Science always has more questions than answers. Religion, on the other hand, has answers
Now hold on... when you think about it, science has less questions than religion, because it excludes all but the physically testable as admissable. The good stuff is in theology and metaphysics my friend. It's like I told a new christian brother of mine who was 'freakin out' a little... "I didn't know what doubt was, until I believed. it's normal!"
Once I became a child of God, all hell broke loose against me.
I have more questions and more answers as a Christian. Way more than I ever thougth possible. I don't have all the answers or even all of the questions. But the answers I do have, cohere with all of the other answers as well as the questions, better than any scientific or social theory can muster.
Religion, on the other hand, has answers, but most of them are wrong.
On what scientific basis do you say they are wrong? You can't use science to critique metaphysics Ringo unless it is really a religion. And that is my whole point.
Metaphysics and theology look at the whole (holy) picture... Natural science looks only at the material universe. It has nothing to validate the positon that Christianity is wrong. There are other tests for that, such as logical consistency, unaffirmabilty, and undeniablity etc, but they are not scientific tests.
And that is why Hume (the empericist) was such a deceiver. He made metaphysical statements against metaphysics. He cut his own throat...
...and why Kant was wrong about faith being all about the heart. The Bible says, "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind." Not... the removal of your mind...
...and Descartes couldn't even prove his own existence rationally, other than to finally conclude, "I think, therefore I am." In other words, "The only thing I cannot doubt, is that there is a doubter doing the doubting."
You really can't prove your own existence, you just cannot deny it logically. The same applies to God. He is simply self evident! There is no point in even trying to say He does not exist, because you would have to be God, in order to say it with authority. And if you are God, then you can't say there is not a God... It's strictly unaffirmable...
Did you ever see a house that didn't have a builder? Or a rock that didn't have a cause? All material things have a cause. It cannot be otherwise. That may not be scientific, but it is better than science because without philosophy (religion), science is meaningless for anything but material utilitarianism and practical applications for the 'now'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 1:05 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 12:01 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 107 of 313 (382071)
02-03-2007 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by ReverendDG
02-03-2007 1:38 AM


Re: Yes... science is a religion
because the human mind can't always concieve of the idea of things evolving, namely its too amazing to be true to people
Nah... that's easy to imagine... Too easy! Darwin is ancient history in this fast paced time of discovery.
What is too amazing for people, is the idea that they can actually meet God. That is what Christianity is all about. That is why it is called 'good news'! Because you don't have to believe blindly, or trust in your own imagination. You can see the 'matrix' for yourself fropm God's vantage point. He just gives it to you! All you have to do is ask and really mean it.
God came to us, and told us how to find Him. It is as emerical as the air in your lungs, because as the first chapter of John's gospel proclaims, '...the Word Became flesh'. Not to mention the miracles and the resurection....
Don't tell me that it is 'too amazing' for you.
It's not like Allah, who is so transcendant, that you can only obey...
It is like this... You can meet Him for yourself if you want to. He opens eyes, He doesn't shut them. But I suspect that for you it is just too amazing?
The truth, is that it is too threatening to people who want to have life their way as they play God of their own lives. That's the problem.
And God will honor your choice. He is not a fascist. He will let you have your way for eternity. And that is hell. He doesn't send us there. We choose it. He offers 'the way' out.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ReverendDG, posted 02-03-2007 1:38 AM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by iceage, posted 02-03-2007 10:43 AM Rob has replied
 Message 167 by ReverendDG, posted 02-04-2007 6:03 AM Rob has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 108 of 313 (382091)
02-03-2007 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Rob
02-02-2007 11:43 PM


More off topic non-responses from Rob.
No one has denied there are absolutes.
The rest of your post is just off topic nonsense.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Rob, posted 02-02-2007 11:43 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 10:44 AM jar has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 109 of 313 (382098)
02-03-2007 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Rob
02-03-2007 1:56 AM


Re: Yes... science is a religion
rob writes:
It is like this... You can meet Him for yourself if you want to. He opens eyes, He doesn't shut them.
Let's only hope he opens your eyes.
Now that your back to intend to intimidate those who challenge you, by mentioning the firearms you own?
Bring on that ole time religion....
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 1:56 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 11:09 AM iceage has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 110 of 313 (382099)
02-03-2007 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
02-03-2007 10:27 AM


Re: More off topic non-responses from Rob.
jar:
No one has denied there are absolutes.
The rest of your post is just off topic nonsense.
Thank you jar. Coming from a cynical contrarian like yourself, I'll take that as a compliment...
And may God bless you with peace, wisdom, and understanding on this glorious weekend. I never forget you in my prayers.
Sincerely, brother Rob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 02-03-2007 10:27 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 02-03-2007 11:09 AM Rob has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 313 (382103)
02-03-2007 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Rob
02-03-2007 10:44 AM


Re: More off topic non-responses from Rob.
Well what you posted in Message 101 was not simply wrong, off topic and inane, it was yet another example of the dishonesty of so many Christians like yourself.
In Message 101 you posted:
jar:
Man evolved.
That is fact.
And the consequences of not holding that belief?
None.
Absolutely none.
Now that's funny!
which appears as though you are actually quoting me when in fact, you were quotemining, taking things I said out of context.
What I actually said can be seen by all in Message 100.
Just so all the readers will see the total bankruptcy of you as a proponent of Christianity or even basic morality, here is that message in toto.
From Message 100
What you said is nonsense, we understand it fully. It is also totally irrelevant, unimportant and inane.
There is no evidence of a designer or of anything being designed.
Sorry, perhaps when someone finally produces some such evidence that stands up to scientific rigor it can be considered.
Until then science simply takes no position.
Man evolved.
That is fact.
You or I or anyone else is still free to hold a position of belief. We may even believe that GOD directed the world we see around us. That is irrelevant to science. Science simply investigates the HOW of what happened and what will happen.
If we believe GOD did it, science only tells us How God Did It.
But that is a belief. That is all. A belief.
And the consequences of not holding that belief?
None.
Absolutely none.
Your postings here at EvC have show a consistent inability to portray what others say with anything even close to honesty. I am sorry but that also seems a Characteristic of many Biblical Christians, particularly with those from the non-denominational Christian sects and Biblical Literalists.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 10:44 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 11:21 AM jar has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 112 of 313 (382105)
02-03-2007 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by iceage
02-03-2007 10:43 AM


Re: Yes... science is a religion
Iceage:
Now that your back to intend to again intimidate those who challenge you my mentioning the firearms you own?
That is totally unfair Iceage (not that I am suprised). And that is off topic, but I can't let it hang, so you've forced me to respond because you have intentionally tried to discredit and assasinate my character.
My arguments must be very effective for you to ignore them and attack me the way you do...
If you take the time to recall accurately, I said that "I had let my concealed weapons permit expire.. because I do not need it anymore."
I don't want to hurt anyone. Not even my enemies. But the old me still wants to exalt itself. It's a battle. 2 steps forward, 1 step back.
So, how is beating swords into plow-shares threatening? It would be different if I said I just bought a new 50 calliber machine gun. Now that's a threat. And I deleted the comment because it opened me up to such drivel as you are now puking all over my fine garments.
I mentioned it (in a different thread) to show Kuresu the man I used to be...
You see? I have changed Iceage... That's what hapens when your eyes are opened. You can admit when you've been wrong, throw away your old anchors, and free yourself from 'needing' your truth to be true. If it is, it can defend itself effectively. And you can free yourself from 'needing you sins to be ok.
They're not ok...
Change is very painful, but so is changing from a wannabe into a talented quarterback. So is changing from an ignoramous, into a mathematician.
What hurts more is to watch people determined to stay mired in the mud. And try and pull you down into the pit with them. I have allowed it to happen before, and am trying very hard now to keep my robes clean.
So go in peace Iceage...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by iceage, posted 02-03-2007 10:43 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by iceage, posted 02-03-2007 11:30 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 113 of 313 (382108)
02-03-2007 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by jar
02-03-2007 11:09 AM


Re: More off topic non-responses from Rob.
I'm sorry jar, have I been ignoring you?
Do you need more attention from me?
Go ahead and say what ever you want... I just don't care.
You've become absolute in your intentions to tear down.
You can qualify your absolutes all you want... It's not context, it's called hedging your bets with sophistry.
The mess you make fools a lot of people, but not me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 02-03-2007 11:09 AM jar has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 114 of 313 (382110)
02-03-2007 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Rob
02-03-2007 11:09 AM


Re: Yes... science is a religion
rob writes:
If you take the time to recall accurately, I said that "I had let my concealed weapons permit expire.. because I do not need it anymore.
Go back and read the context, Rob. It did not follow from the discussion or the prior paragraphs. It was a complete non-sequiter and akin to flashing a weapon in a road rage incident. Why was the specification of the weapon necessary? Why did you mentioning after calling kurescu a "Punk"?
Sorry all for the diversion. I will not follow this thread any more.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 11:09 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 11:47 AM iceage has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 115 of 313 (382112)
02-03-2007 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by iceage
02-03-2007 11:30 AM


Re: Yes... science is a religion
Go back and read the context, Rob. It did not follow from the discussion or the prior paragraphs. It was a complete non-sequiter and akin to flashing a weapon in a road rage incident. Why was the specification of the weapon necessary? Why did you mentioning after calling kurescu a "Punk"?
I also edited out the insults.
In a way you are right... a play on Clint eastwood did I (thought Ringo would be proud).
I was letting Kuresu know that if he assumes that all christians are ignorant and innocent little people who live in a bubble, that he is flat wrong.
I was showing him my bare animal past! I held nothing back.
But I concede that is is only pride that made me do that. I was offended that he did not respect me as an objective and independent thinker, who thought deeply about the matter of faith, and did not just jump on a mindless bandwagon.
And that is true...
Christ came to save sinners, and as paul said, "I am chief'. He said, if I brag let me boast about my weaknesses. I will boast in the Lord. The Lord is strong.
I still think it was one of the most effective evangels I have offered. But I went too far. I have admitted that to Kuresu and have apologized in the very thread you brought up. Go see for yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by iceage, posted 02-03-2007 11:30 AM iceage has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 116 of 313 (382116)
02-03-2007 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Rob
02-03-2007 1:44 AM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Rob writes:
... when you think about it, science has less questions than religion, because it excludes all but the physically testable as admissable.
Look what you wrote: science excludes all but the physically testable. Testing means asking questions - thats what science does. And when it finds an answer, it asks more questions about the answer.
Religion doesn't do that.
The good stuff is in theology and metaphysics my friend.
Where "the good stuff" is is not the issue here.
You can't use science to critique metaphysics....
Sure you can, if religion makes false statements about what we can observe.
Religion is routinely wrong about everything in science. More importantly, it stays wrong - often defiantly wrong. Science is self-correcting - religion is not.
Metaphysics and theology look at the whole (holy) picture... Natural science looks only at the material universe.
So you've just agreed that science is neither metaphysics nor theology.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 1:44 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 12:16 PM ringo has replied
 Message 118 by iceage, posted 02-03-2007 12:30 PM ringo has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 117 of 313 (382118)
02-03-2007 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by ringo
02-03-2007 12:01 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Look what you wrote: science excludes all but the physically testable. Testing means asking questions - thats what science does. And when it finds an answer, it asks more questions about the answer.
Religion doesn't do that.
One religion does... When Jesus says that he will manifest himself, we can test it. And when He does, we can then start asking all kinds of questions that science cannot address.
I am speaking here of science as it is claimed to be. but I maintain that it is a false relgion. Real science is the whole picture.
Science (as you see it) can never have the whole answer. That is why an honest scientist will never say that science is truth. It can only be part of the truth. Added context from other disciplines can radically alter one's interpretation.
science does not cover metaphysical ground. But metaphysical ground is a reality. That's what quantum mechanics is all about. A vein of science you and so many others insist on ignoring or dismissing. On that note, the pantheists are way ahead of the curve compared to most Christians and scientists.
So you've just agreed that science is neither metaphysics nor theology.
nice try...
You make it a religion Ringo, by attempting to use it as a shield against God and trying to define 'proof' as something very limited in scope.
There is no greater proof than meeting God personally! Only christianity gives you that. Though you can contact other spirits besides God's, by other methods. But as I asked a friend once when we were discussing spiritism and rare Satan worship cults... "Ok... if your going to believe in spirits, why would you choose to contact satan or his demons, or even risk it?" How stupid is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 12:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 12:30 PM Rob has replied
 Message 120 by cavediver, posted 02-03-2007 12:44 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 121 by iceage, posted 02-03-2007 12:49 PM Rob has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 118 of 313 (382121)
02-03-2007 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by ringo
02-03-2007 12:01 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Ringo writes:
Religion is routinely wrong about everything in science. More importantly, it stays wrong - often defiantly wrong. Science is self-correcting - religion is not.
This really sums it up.
The self-correcting mechanism of science is really an under appreciated quality.
The system places a very high value on finding a new theory or explanation that better explains the world. The individual(s) that proposes a new theory maybe originally ostracized by the established community but in the end if the theory is found irrefutable they are granted hero status. Religion on the other hand, has a tendency to label its iconoclast as heretics and burns them at the stake or excommunicates.
Science corrects for human fallibility, while religion builds a foundation on it.
Science is like an airplane that navigates on autopilot to a destination. The control system continuously corrects its path along the way. You could say that vehicle is always in error but in the average along the course it stays close to the true path.
Religion is like setting the control surfaces (ailerons) to a calculated position based on the present data and then freeze them into that position (canonization) for the remainder of the trip. The vehicle of course begins to veer of course and never even comes close to the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 12:01 PM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 119 of 313 (382122)
02-03-2007 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Rob
02-03-2007 12:16 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Rob writes:
When Jesus says that he will manifest himself, we can test it.
We can't test it physically and we can't test it repeatably.
I am speaking here of science as it is claimed to be.
You are speaking of science as you claim it to be. That's a strawman.
But metaphysical ground is a reality. That's what quantum mechanics is all about. A vein of science you and so many others insist on ignoring or dismissing.
Where have you ever, ever, ever heard me dismiss quantum mechanics? Y'know, there's a reason why it's called "quantum mechanics". It's not the spooky, woo-woo metaphysical mumbo-jumbo that you think it is.
You make it a religion Ringo, by attempting to use it as a shield against God....
Again, where have you ever, ever, ever heard me attempt to use science as a "shield against God"?
... and trying to define 'proof' as something very limited in scope.
Science doesn't deal in "proof" at all - never mind as "something very limited in scope".
Everything you say confirms that science and religion are very different animals.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 12:16 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 1:23 PM ringo has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 120 of 313 (382126)
02-03-2007 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Rob
02-03-2007 12:16 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
But metaphysical ground is a reality. That's what quantum mechanics is all about. A vein of science you and so many others insist on ignoring or dismissing
Oh, not you as well
QM is not metaphysical and has as much to do with spirituality as welding. But if you can include "devoting a large part of one's life to" in with ignoring and dismissing, then I guess I have both ignored and dismissed quantum mechanics
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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