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Author Topic:   Is Science a Religion?
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 121 of 313 (382132)
02-03-2007 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Rob
02-03-2007 12:16 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Rob writes:
science does not cover metaphysical ground.
No it just relentlessly continues to reduce its domain. At one time all was metaphysics. The annual seasons, sickness, rainbows, the stars (heavens) were metaphysics.
rob writes:
But metaphysical ground is a reality. That's what quantum mechanics is all about. A vein of science you and so many others insist on ignoring or dismissing.
Quantum mechanics is a fundamental branch of science, not religion - keep that in mind.
Please identify those that ignore the implications, insights or value of Quantum Mechanics.
Sorry but religion cannot lay claim or seek refuge within the realm of Quantum Mechanics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 12:16 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 1:40 PM iceage has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 122 of 313 (382143)
02-03-2007 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Open MInd
01-26-2007 10:55 AM


science informs philosophy, philosophy includes religion
Since the concept of a creator is not scientific, it follows that science must exclude a supernatural creator from any of its components. What we have is a subject matter that tries to describe the world without a creator.
Logical fallacy. First the precept is wrongly worded: the concept of a creator is not testable, therefore it is not subject to scientific evaluation. Thus it follows that science must be agnostic: it cannot judge whether creator is true or false. What we have is a subject matter that tries to describe the world based on testable hypothesis.
Science informs philosophy: it can tell you what concepts are false (such as geocentric or young earth), but it cannot tell you what cannot be tested.
That philosophy includes both science and religion does not mean that science = religion.
Philosophy goes beyond science, by making logical conclusions based on accepted premises. When such premises are based on faith or belief rather than fact then those philosophical conclusions are religious in nature.
faith -noun1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.
Definition #2 applies to non-testable and untested hypothesis, whether it is a belief in god or multi-dimensional universes.
be·lief -noun1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.
Again, definition #2 applies to non-testable and untested hypothesis, whether it is a belief in god or multi-dimensional universes.
Science is based on testable hypothesis formed from observation of evidence that take the form:
If {X} is true, then only {Y}, or if {X} is false then {Z}

Example:
if the earth is young is true then there should only be evidence of a young earth - false
if the earth is young is false then there should be evidence that the earth is old - true
This is not faith or belief, it is based on logical proof and material evidence, it is susceptible to rigorous proof. It is repeatable. When philosophical premises are based on faith or belief rather than fact then the philosophical conclusions are not scientific in nature.
The major distinction between {faith\belief} and {scientific hypothesis\theory} is that {science} can be false - and it can be tested to show that it is false - whereas {faith\belief} only allows that the concept is true.
re·li·gion -noun1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
Science is not a set of beliefs based on faith, therefore it cannot be a religion.
Obviously, if science seeks to formulate laws upon which the world is run on a daily basis down to the atomic level, where can religion fit in?
Where it normally does in a person's world view: philosophy. You can apply the same argument for mathematics: where does god fit in when no matter how you add things up or integrate, divide, multiply, apply transformations etc, the answer is never = god.
Because science must explain the entire world and its origin without using any religous factors and rather using formulated "Laws of Nature", science is its own religion.
Fallacious logical structure as well as based on only one premise that is false.
Science can explain what we know AND can test, the rest it leaves open as "we don't know (yet)" -- including the untestable question of god (including the question of which god ... ).
However, science does rest on logical proof AND material evidence, it allows that it can be false, and therefore it cannot be faith or belief (in the truth of the hypothesis and theories): Science cannot be religion. QED by definition.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Open MInd, posted 01-26-2007 10:55 AM Open MInd has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 123 of 313 (382144)
02-03-2007 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ringo
02-03-2007 12:30 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Ringo:
We can't test it physically and we can't test it repeatably.
Every individual can test it for himself. Do you think all those Christians over the years were lying about their personal relationship with God? I agree that some were...
As for other religions... they don't make such a claim to begin with. they offer all sorts of philosophizing and blind faith claims.
Science doesn't deal in "proof" at all - never mind as "something very limited in scope".
And that is precisely why the new Covenant is a better covenant than just Law... because you can have proof!
Just admit again that you don't want proof.... You prefer to choose mystery; The mystery of Babylon.
You have your reasons...
Do you think Jesus was lying when He said we could know Him? And that some would not taste death, before seeing the kingdom of heaven coming with power?
It has been tested physically since he manifests himself in all of the physical creation and to physical beings, and it has been repeated untold millions of times. And many have died because they refused to deny their claim that Jesus is Lord.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 12:30 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 1:40 PM Rob has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 124 of 313 (382148)
02-03-2007 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Rob
02-03-2007 1:23 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Rob writes:
We can't test it physically and we can't test it repeatably.
Every individual can test it for himself.
You missed the two keywords in the sentence: "physically" and "repeatably".
Nobody can test anything about Jesus physically.
And if there was such a test, everybody - Christian and non-Christian alike - would have to get the same result for it to be scientifically valid.
Science doesn't deal in "proof" at all - never mind as "something very limited in scope".
And that is precisely why the new Covenant is a better covenant than just Law... because you can have proof!
So once again you agree that religion - New Covenant, Old Covenant or Indifferent Covenant - is completely different from science.
Just admit again that you don't want proof....
I never said whether or not I wanted proof. I said that science doesn't provide proof. Try to demonstrate some reading comprehension.
You prefer to choose mystery....
Well, no. I prefer to look for answers - not wallow in the wrong answers that religion produces.
The best way to look for answers is by asking questions, not by jumping to conclusions.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 1:23 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 6:00 PM ringo has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 125 of 313 (382149)
02-03-2007 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by iceage
02-03-2007 12:49 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Sorry but religion cannot lay claim or seek refuge within the realm of Quantum Mechanics.
Tell that to Frijof Capra, Page not found Page not found | Fritjof Capra and John Polkinghorne http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?JohnPolkinghorne
Capra is an unapologetic pntheist and Polkinhorne a Christian.
But your right really, no-one can seek refuge in science. The only place for rest is in God. Even God finds rest in Himself. And then science begins to actually explain some things beside what a penis is. You might find out what it is for, and what it is not for.
The creation was only created to exapnd the spirtual bliss into physical manifestation. But the androids keep refusing the program. They want hell, not heaven. And that's what we get. We just have to admit that we are terribly mistaken.
But we can't have that can we iceage? You know your not wrong, even though you assure me we can't know...
You need to slow down. We've been wrong about a lot of things... the androids that is... You know... created in the image of God?
I emplore you to stop acting like an android, and be Godly, like you know inherently you should be, because his law is writtten upon your heart.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by iceage, posted 02-03-2007 12:49 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by iceage, posted 02-03-2007 2:46 PM Rob has replied
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 3:39 PM Rob has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 126 of 313 (382163)
02-03-2007 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Rob
02-03-2007 1:40 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
I will read your links when I have time later, they sound interesting.
Rob writes:
But your right really, no-one can seek refuge in science.
No I said that religion cannot seek refuge in "spooky" Quantum Mechanics. I did not say we should seek refuge in science. You twist my meaning around.
Rob writes:
We just have to admit that we are terribly mistaken.
But we can't have that can we iceage? You know your not wrong.
I make no claims of infallibility. I know I am often wrong.
Furthermore I have no problem admitting I don't know and cannot even know the full nature of reality. I accept the uncertainty and mystery.
It takes humility to say, "I don’t know." On the other hand, "true believers" who paradoxically include humility as part of their religion, are reluctant to admit that they don’t know, and make aggressive proclamations of knowing the truth.
Such self-serving certainty of knowing things you cannot know, opposes humility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 1:40 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 6:14 PM iceage has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 127 of 313 (382168)
02-03-2007 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Rob
02-03-2007 1:40 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
I emplore you to stop acting like an android, and be Godly, like you know inherently you should be, because his law is writtten upon your heart.
Here's a typical adult human heart:
Can you show me where your God's law, or anything at all for that matter, is written on it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 1:40 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 6:11 PM crashfrog has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 128 of 313 (382185)
02-03-2007 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by ringo
02-03-2007 1:40 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
The best way to look for answers is by asking questions, not by jumping to conclusions.
I ain't buying it Ringo... If the purpose for asking questions is to find answers, then what conclusions have you reached that are true? What absolute truth did you discover?
You don't believe in answers. It is jumping to conclusions to you. If you can not know for sure, then you can go on asking questions forever.
Do you need all of the answers before you will accept the conclusion? If so, then you are demanding to have omniscience. You can't have it. We already have a God.
You only ask questions to evade the answers... Because the only thing that matters to you is your agenda. You are looking for the answers you want, not the answers that are available.
Good luck with that. But I'm not going to waste any more time answering endless questions. You don't accept the answers anyway. I already have a three year old...
If you won't risk becoming a fool and believing in something, then you lose the right to believe anything. It's not motivated by intelligent skepticism, but by cynical fear of losing control.
But we are all going to have our control stripped from us anyway. No sense putting off the inevitable.
You procrastinator you!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 1:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 02-03-2007 6:10 PM Rob has replied
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 7:13 PM Rob has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 129 of 313 (382187)
02-03-2007 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Rob
02-03-2007 6:00 PM


Ah the old Absolute Truth fiction pops up again.
I ain't buying it Ringo... If the purpose for asking questions is to find answers, then what conclusions have you reached that are true? What absolute truth did you discover?
LOL
There goes the Absolute Truth flyby again.
If you can not know for sure, then you can go on asking questions forever.
Good. You are finally getting it.
Yet once again, what the hell does any of your post have to do with the subject?
In case you have forgotten, the topic is "Is Science a Religion?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 6:00 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 6:30 PM jar has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 130 of 313 (382188)
02-03-2007 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by crashfrog
02-03-2007 3:39 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Can you show me where your God's law, or anything at all for that matter, is written on it?
Yes, I can. It is that little voice that tells you it is wrong to steal, lie, fornicate, and be otherwise uncivilized.
Is that all there is to Crash's heart? Just blood and soil? Do you know that that is what the Nazis called humanity? Blood and soil... We are only material, no heart... so we might as well kill it with strict discipline and propaganda. We are what we're programmed with. YOu are what you eat they say... Or as the Bible infers, 'we are what we worship'. 'Those who worship these idols, become like them.'
Obviously I was speaking about the spirit and the soul. About the will and the conscious etc... The heart of the real you. What we keep hidden and buried under absolute gaurd so as not to expose ourselves to hurt by others who have hurt us so deeply in the past. That is prison, not freedom. Tear down the wall...
Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 3:39 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 6:28 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 131 of 313 (382189)
02-03-2007 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by iceage
02-03-2007 2:46 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Furthermore I have no problem admitting I don't know and cannot even know the full nature of reality. I accept the uncertainty and mystery.
It takes humility to say, "I don’t know." On the other hand, "true believers" who paradoxically include humility as part of their religion, are reluctant to admit that they don’t know, and make aggressive proclamations of knowing the truth.
Such self-serving certainty of knowing things you cannot know, opposes humility.
Now were getting somewhere...
Since we're meandering off the topic, would you be willing to discuss this in a great debate setting with me? Not so as to prove you wrong in some public spectacle, but to discuss it frankly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by iceage, posted 02-03-2007 2:46 PM iceage has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 132 of 313 (382192)
02-03-2007 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Rob
02-03-2007 6:11 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Yes, I can.
I'm still waiting for you to do so. Where on that organ do you see anything written?
It is that little voice that tells you it is wrong to steal, lie, fornicate, and be otherwise uncivilized.
Lol! No, that little voice is me.
You've been talking to yourself for a very long time, Rob.
Yes, because it's just an organ. It has no capacity for speech, nor for doing anything except circulating blood.
Obviously I was speaking about the spirit and the soul.
Which don't exist. Look, you were doing better when you were talking about hearts; at least those are real organs. Spirit? Soul? Can you point to those on an anatomy chart, Rob?
That is prison, not freedom.
Your nonsense is a mental prison, sequestering your good sense. It's bricks are the pages of your nonsense Bible. Tear down your own wall, Rob.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 6:11 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 6:41 PM crashfrog has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 133 of 313 (382194)
02-03-2007 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
02-03-2007 6:10 PM


Re: Ah the old Absolute Truth fiction pops up again.
Rob:
If you can not know for sure, then you can go on asking questions forever.
jar:
Good. You are finally getting it.
You are acting as though that is a conclusion jar... But in defense of infinite questions?????
How can you know for sure that you can't know for sure?
Do you hear yourself, as you constantly, and consistently, contradict yourself?
What you give with one hand, you take away with the other. That is palming the pea (as you so love to project onto others).
It's like Ravi, talking to a shiek in Jeruselem (I think his name is pronounced Dellel?). He was incarcerated in Jeruselem for many crimes, and was one of the founders of Hamas.
Ravi asked him if he disavowed suicide bombing. The sheik replied, 'I am against all innocent killing. All innnocent killing. But every person has the right to defend himself' (paraphrased from my memory).
He had just killed his absolute with sophistry. Let's just say he was playing with himself.
And to finish the great story...
Ravi went on to remind him of the story where Abraham takes Issac up to the mountain, even though the Muslims believe it was Ishmael. The sheik understood. And as the blade was about to fall, God said, 'Stop! I will provide'.
Ravi went on to tell the sheik that until we accept the Son that God provided, we will continue to offer our own sons as a sacrifice to save us.
When the blade was raised to Christ, it did not stop. And he said, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 02-03-2007 6:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by kuresu, posted 02-03-2007 7:04 PM Rob has replied
 Message 137 by jar, posted 02-03-2007 7:06 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 134 of 313 (382196)
02-03-2007 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by crashfrog
02-03-2007 6:28 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Rob:
It is that little voice that tells you it is wrong to steal, lie, fornicate, and be otherwise uncivilized.
Crash:
Lol! No, that little voice is me.
Ok... then who is the other voice who says, "don't listen to him... he's just a crazy fundie!"?
And who is the guy in the middle? The one who has to decide which voice to heed?
You are triune Crash. Three in one, created in the image of your maker.
Crash:
You've been talking to yourself for a very long time, Rob.
You're so right! For a long time I did indeed...33 yrs to be precise. Couldn't understand why I was always in conflict with myself... you know? I wanted to kill one of those voices so I could live in peace and harmony.
But you need to realize that the one voice, is God's voice. Don't kill it! It's your only way home. It's why Jesus said that 'the kingdom of heaven is within'.
Rob:
Obviously I was speaking about the spirit and the soul.
Crash:
Which don't exist.
An absolute statement Crash... shame shame shame on you, you fundie!
You've been a bad boy, but God loves you more than you can imagine. He died for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 6:28 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 6:56 PM Rob has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 135 of 313 (382199)
02-03-2007 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Rob
02-03-2007 6:41 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Ok... then who is the other voice who says, "don't listen to him... he's just a crazy fundie!"?
I don't know what "other voice" you're talking about. If you're hearing voices, Rob, maybe you should talk to someone about that.
You are triune Crash.
No, I'm just me.
But you need to realize that the one voice, is God's voice.
No, it's not, Rob. I thought it was for many years, but I was wrong, as are you. It was my voice, it's your voice.
An absolute statement Crash...
Maybe you have me confused with someone else, somebody who thinks that there's no such thing as absolutely existing or absolutely not existing.
I can assure you that I don't. Souls and spirits don't exist. God doesn't exist. The only voice that speaks inside your head is your own, Rob.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 6:41 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 7:46 PM crashfrog has replied

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