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Author Topic:   Is Science a Religion?
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 136 of 313 (382200)
02-03-2007 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Rob
02-03-2007 6:30 PM


Re: Ah the old Absolute Truth fiction pops up again.
hey rob, just so you know, there's a difference between killing innocent people and killing someone who's trying to destroy you.
no contradiction in his statement.
you need to quit jumping the gun and think a little before you post.

Question. Always Question.
" . . .and some nights I just pray to the god of sex and drugs and rock'n'roll"--meatloaf
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 6:30 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 8:01 PM kuresu has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 137 of 313 (382201)
02-03-2007 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Rob
02-03-2007 6:30 PM


Re: Ah the old Absolute Truth fiction pops up again.
You are acting as though that is a conclusion jar... But in defense of infinite questions?????
How can you know for sure that you can't know for sure?
More silly nonsense. Answers should always be questioned.
I'm sorry but Ravi reminds me far to much of Charley McCarthy.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 6:30 PM Rob has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 138 of 313 (382204)
02-03-2007 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Rob
02-03-2007 6:00 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Rob writes:
If the purpose for asking questions is to find answers, then what conclusions have you reached that are true?
I said "answers", not "conclusions". And what does "truth" have to do with it?
You only ask questions to evade the answers...
That's just silly. If I wanted to evade the answers, I wouldn't ask the questions. No questions, no answers. Simple.
You are looking for the answers you want, not the answers that are available.
Not at all. I am looking for the answers that are available, the verifiable answers. And when I get those answers, I'll ask more questions. It's a journey without a destination.
I'm not going to waste any more time answering endless questions. You don't accept the answers anyway.
More silliness. I don't ask questions because I want answers from you. You're one of the last people on earth I'd go to for answers. I ask you questions to get you to think.
Unfortunately, all you come up with is lame, trite, out-of-the-box "answers".
If you won't risk becoming a fool and believing in something, then you lose the right to believe anything.
The "right to believe anything"? Why on God's green @#$%ing earth would I want the "right to believe anything"?
This topic is not about the "right to believe". It's more like the responsibility to figure things out instead of believing.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 6:00 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 8:12 PM ringo has replied
 Message 143 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 8:56 PM ringo has replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 139 of 313 (382206)
02-03-2007 7:26 PM


Is science a religion?
"Is science a religion?" is a mistaken question, something like "Is an automobile a horse?" I think only religious people would ask if science is a religion. That's because they operate out of their bicameral minds and everthing to them is religious in one way or another. Science, however, is an enterprize of consciousness, whereby the bicameral mind can be seen for what it is. In this respect science is an anti-religion; it differentiates faith from fact.
”Hoot Mon

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 140 of 313 (382212)
02-03-2007 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by crashfrog
02-03-2007 6:56 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
I can assure you that I don't. Souls and spirits don't exist. God doesn't exist. The only voice that speaks inside your head is your own, Rob.
So the ideas you're giving me... are just me talking to myself? It's just me? All the ideas in my head are Just me?
So where do ideas of God come from? Or ideas of devils?
Where do the ideas of Adolf Hitler come from?
And how do we have the right to say ours are better than his?
You said 'souls do not exist'... Are you making an absolute statement, or just making a profession of faith?
And who told you that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 6:56 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 9:27 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 141 of 313 (382217)
02-03-2007 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by kuresu
02-03-2007 7:04 PM


Re: Ah the old Absolute Truth fiction pops up again.
Kuresu;
hey rob, just so you know, there's a difference between killing innocent people and killing someone who's trying to destroy you.
no contradiction in his statement.
I was hoping jar might say that, but it's better this way.
D' ol' sheik was palming the pea... you see?
Because killing innocent civilians is the primary tactic of terrorist groups like Hamas, so it is very contrary...
It's suicide bombing laddie, not self defense.
Kuresu:
you need to quit jumping the gun and think a little before you post.
Well, to be truthful... I do it too. Just not today. Today, you are the guest of honor.
So you need to ask yourself a question... 'Do I feel lucky?'
Well... Do ya... Kuresu?
Seriously... it could have been me. But I had to make it worthwhile.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by kuresu, posted 02-03-2007 7:04 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by kuresu, posted 02-03-2007 10:48 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 142 of 313 (382220)
02-03-2007 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
02-03-2007 7:13 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
The "right to believe anything"? Why on God's green @#$%ing earth would I want the "right to believe anything"?
This topic is not about the "right to believe". It's more like the responsibility to figure things out instead of believing.
And you believe... that you have that responsibility?
I have three words for you Ringo...
1.suicide
2.of
3.thought
"But the new rebel is a Skeptic, and will not entirely trust anything. He has no loyalty; therefore he can never be a real revolutionist. And the fact that he doubts everything, really gets in his way when he wants to denounce anything. For all denunciation implies a moral doctrine of some kind, and the modern revolutionist doubts not only the institution he denounces, but also the doctrine by which he denounces it.
Thus he writes one book complaining that imperial oppression insults the purity of women, and then he writes another book (about the sex problem) in which he insults it himself. He curses the Sultan because Christian girls lose their virginity and then curses Mrs. Grundy when they keep it. As a politician, he will cry out that war is a waste of life, and then, as a philosopher, that all life is a waste of time. A man denounces marriage as a lie, and then denounces aristocratic profligates for treating it as a lie. He calls a flag a bauble, and then blames the oppressors of Poland and Ireland because they take away that bauble.
The man of this school goes first to a political meeting, where he complains that savages are treated as if they were beasts; then he takes his hat and umbrella and goes on to a scientific meeting, where he proves that they practically are beasts. In short, the modern revolutionist, being an infinite skeptic, is always engaged in undermining his own mines. In his book on politics he attacks men for trampling on morality; in his book on ethics he attacks morality for trampling on men. Therefore the modern man in revolt has become practically useless for all purposes of revolt. By rebelling against everything he has lost his right to rebel against anything."
(G.K. Chesterton- Orthodoxy/ Chapter title - The Suicide of Thought / 1908)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 7:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 9:09 PM Rob has replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 143 of 313 (382225)
02-03-2007 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
02-03-2007 7:13 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Ringo writes:
Not at all. I am looking for the answers that are available, the verifiable answers. And when I get those answers, I'll ask more questions. It's a journey without a destination.
What is this nonsense about questions and answers, seriously?
What verifiable answers can you possibly have that I can't? You sound like you imagine religious people sitting at their computers quoting out of books, paying no heed to the words before them, and installing the same words in every situation. Some of them do. But you, afterwards, repeat the answers back to them, with as little comprehension or argument as the previous, often with only a twisted rendition of the very words on the screen.
Why is this battle even taking place? No one is learning a flying thing, from topic to topic, from day to day. I have picked up countless facts, definitions, histories, trivialities, biographies, most from my own research after the fact, but I have yet to see a shred of evidence which says religions can't be true, or that questioning things has led anyone to a better interpretation of life.
Verifiable facts are easy to come by. Anyone can get some. There is nothing glorious about letting life slip by waiting for enough 'facts' to raise you from this mundane pursuit.
The question is, if science deals with the verifiable, and is not a religion, why are verifiable answers competing with religion here? Where does this competition between questions and religion come from? I assure you I have access to the same answers which you have, and the possibility of even more than you allow for. My religion has not curbed my appetite for knowledge, but opened the door. I see all around me nothing but shuttered houses.
I completely understand jar's point about questioning answers. yet, if the answer is God, no amount of questioning will ever disprove, or prove, God. The most we can hope for is a fuller understanding, and the most hopeless thing we can do is dream of any understanding. We are left in the same predicament, whether educated or ignorant.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 7:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 9:20 PM anastasia has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 144 of 313 (382228)
02-03-2007 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Rob
02-03-2007 8:12 PM


Rob writes:
This topic is not about the "right to believe". It's more like the responsibility to figure things out instead of believing.
And you believe... that you have that responsibility?
I told you, it's not about belief. I welcome the responsibility.
(I have also told you before, I don't read your sermons or your cut and pastes, so you might as well not waste your time on them.)

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 8:12 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 9:24 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 145 of 313 (382230)
02-03-2007 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by anastasia
02-03-2007 8:56 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
anastasia writes:
What verifiable answers can you possibly have that I can't?
I didn't say you "can't".
You sound like you imagine religious people sitting at their computers quoting out of books, paying no heed to the words before them, and installing the same words in every situation.
That's an excellent description of Rob (and I was talking to Rob, not you. ).
... I have yet to see a shred of evidence which says religions can't be true....
I have yet to see anybody around here try to present such evidence.
The question is, if science deals with the verifiable, and is not a religion, why are verifiable answers competing with religion here?
There's no competition. People have been trying to explain that science deals with the verifiable and religion does not. They are two separate areas where no competition is possible.
I assure you I have access to the same answers which you have, and the possibility of even more than you allow for.
"Having access" is irrelevant. You can live next door to the Library of Congress and never go inside.
My religion has not curbed my appetite for knowledge, but opened the door.
Good for you. That certainly doesn't apply to all religious people. Shall I name names?
...if the answer is God, no amount of questioning will ever disprove, or prove, God.
Nobody here is trying to prove or disprove God. The point of this thread is that science takes no notice of the question of God.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 8:56 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 9:33 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 149 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 9:39 PM ringo has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 146 of 313 (382231)
02-03-2007 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by ringo
02-03-2007 9:09 PM


Please tell me more...
Ringo:
I told you, it's not about belief. I welcome the responsibility.
I understand completely!
You don't believe in what you're responsible for figuring out...
Suicide of Thought
Dear jar... Did you hear what Ringo said? Now that's palming the pea!
In a way, you're right Ringo... I don't believe you!
As I've said before to several now, you'd serve yourself better by remaining silent.
You're own words condemn you.
I've been there Ringo... You're not alone. That's the only reason I know these things...

Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 9:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 9:41 PM Rob has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 147 of 313 (382233)
02-03-2007 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Rob
02-03-2007 7:46 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
All the ideas in my head are Just me?
All the ideas in your head are just you. All the ideas in my head are just me. When we communicate, ideas in my head are used to cause ideas in yours, but they're rarely the exact same ideas (highlighting how important the participation of the listener to the process is.)
So where do ideas of God come from? Or ideas of devils?
From people.
Where do the ideas of Adolf Hitler come from?
Hitler's ideas came from himself. People's ideas abut Hitler come from them.
You said 'souls do not exist'... Are you making an absolute statement
Yes. There is no such thing as the "soul."
And who told you that?
I don't need to have someone tell me what is obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 7:46 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 9:42 PM crashfrog has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 148 of 313 (382235)
02-03-2007 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by ringo
02-03-2007 9:20 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Ringo:
why are verifiable answers competing with religion here?
Verifiable? And subject to revision?
There was a classic debate between some scientist named Shapiro, against another from Texas A&M. And the one asked Shapiro how science explains origins, and Shapiro said it can't! But give us time..."
And at the beggining of the debate, Shapiro made the comment that science is subject to revision (or something like that).
How convenient! They can claim that it is all about facts, but without the burden that it will still hold true in the future.
Talk about 'palming the pea'. It never ends with you guys...
It's true, but it;s not true. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 9:20 PM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 9:43 PM Rob has replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 149 of 313 (382237)
02-03-2007 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by ringo
02-03-2007 9:20 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
I believe you are reasonable, and probably more deeply so than others will believe.
It is disconcerting in a way to see no heart on your sleeve, but your intelligence is unmistakable, and I am sure it is well-used. Sometimes I wish that it had more of a discernable purpose, for you have the qualities of a great teacher, as does jar, and yet, I am never sure of the subject I am studying.
ABE: I have heretofore not responded in this thread because the differences between science and religion have been expounded nicely by PaulK early on, and RAZD most carefully. I have only wished that those who do not understand the difference will not view religion as a dead-end.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 9:20 PM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 150 of 313 (382238)
02-03-2007 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Rob
02-03-2007 9:24 PM


Re: Please tell me more...
Rob writes:
You don't believe in what you're responsible for figuring out...
Exactly.
Belief is the antithesis of responsibility. You already know the answers so you can just sit on your butt and act superior. Figuring things out requires work, thought, effort....
That's why science is the antithesis of religion.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 9:24 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Rob, posted 02-03-2007 9:47 PM ringo has replied

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