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Author Topic:   Morals without God or Darwin, just Empathy
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 80 of 184 (381339)
01-30-2007 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by anastasia
01-30-2007 1:03 PM


Re: Mundane? Yes. Survival-driven? Not convinced.
Ana writes:
We have gone from rape, good for survival and quite normal, to appreciation of consent.
This is in direct contradiction to your post to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by anastasia, posted 01-30-2007 1:03 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 89 of 184 (381519)
01-31-2007 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Jon
01-31-2007 3:11 PM


Re: Mundane? Yes. Survival-driven? Not convinced.
Jon writes:
it would make sense that a rapist (seeking power) would give up where he/she could not get that power and only follow through in the instances where he/she can.
Yup. And pacification guestures would increase the sense of power. To experience this sense of power one must 'know' that the victim is powerless. This requires empathy.
'Goads' was an ill chosen word and not meant to indicate that the victim intentionally encourages the rape.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Jon, posted 01-31-2007 3:11 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Jon, posted 02-01-2007 11:30 AM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 90 of 184 (381524)
01-31-2007 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by anastasia
01-30-2007 6:23 PM


Re: Mundane? Yes. Survival-driven? Not convinced.
Ana writes:
you have said that we have things which tell us right from wrong.
No I have not. Again, to reiterate: we learn right and wrong.
Ana writes:
You have scientifically proved this.
No I have not.
Ana writes:
It is NOT some natural reaction.
Yes it is. Thats why there is not reason to invoke a god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by anastasia, posted 01-30-2007 6:23 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 98 of 184 (381824)
02-02-2007 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Jon
02-01-2007 11:30 AM


Re: The Path of Least Resistance
Jon writes:
This doesn't require empathy!
Yes it does. Take sadistic rape for example:
My bolding.
Article writes:
Sadistic Rape: In this case, physical force (anger and power) becomes an erotic stimulant for the rapist. He takes intense pleasure in her torment and suffering (Groth and Birnbaum, p. 44). The offender is usually intensely excited; excitement is directly connected to the pain which he is inflicting upon his victim (Groth and Birnbaum, p. 45).
http://www.rapecrisisonline.com/articles.htm
To recognise the torment one needs empathy.
The rest of your post is about animals and not relevant to people.

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 Message 92 by Jon, posted 02-01-2007 11:30 AM Jon has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 99 of 184 (381825)
02-02-2007 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by anastasia
02-01-2007 3:52 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
Ana writes:
What I see is that loving ourselves is natural; then, loving our family, then, others like us, with loving our enemies and our neighbor in general last on the list. This tells me that whatever our survival mechanisms are, they are still geared to the small tribe. People don't write books reminding us to survive by stealing, lying, or murdering when we have to. We end up asking and reminding each other to be better than 'natural' with love for those outside of our tribe. Many political movements ask us to be better by looking to the global community, etc. Yet we are remaining the same by and large, waking today with the same old urge to yell at the kids and the dog, make fun of someone online, lust after someone on tv, etc.
Damnit! I agree with you....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by anastasia, posted 02-01-2007 3:52 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 100 of 184 (381826)
02-02-2007 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Jon
02-01-2007 4:31 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
Jon writes:
But then you must show us how "moral" = "doing what is good for others."
Well this is not true so it does not follow that it has to be shown.

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 Message 96 by Jon, posted 02-01-2007 4:31 PM Jon has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 110 of 184 (382024)
02-02-2007 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by anastasia
02-02-2007 5:12 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
Ana writes:
A rapist for example, may lack some of the ability to play fairly. He may not have sufficient intelligence, and may be found insane or incompetant. The point is, that most often he is judged as one who has just not practiced. It is assumed that he has been given the same rule as everyone else, and his failure is his own.
Okay, you got me, what the hell does this mean?

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 Message 107 by anastasia, posted 02-02-2007 5:12 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 111 of 184 (382028)
02-02-2007 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by anastasia
02-02-2007 5:12 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
Ana writes:
The one thing that I would say to make my position known, is that I don't believe the voice of the conscience is 'mine' at all. but God's.
This is where you sell yourself short: you attribute to a god your own wonderfull appreciation of reality.
You are nature's fanatastic creation. Don't attribute 'you' to someone else. It demeans you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by anastasia, posted 02-02-2007 5:12 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by anastasia, posted 02-02-2007 10:40 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 119 of 184 (382150)
02-03-2007 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by anastasia
02-02-2007 10:40 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
Ana writes:
So I am a 'happy accident' in a world of unfortunate malfunction?
What is wrong with being serendipitous? The world is full of happy accidents.
Ana writes:
Must I be indebted to nature and thank s/he/it for my luck in this draw?
Do you honestly think I believe this? I'm not personifying nature at all. I certainly did not mean to imply that nature is an entity.
Humans are in debt to no entity for their existance.
Ana writes:
I would rather believe
This is what it boils down to is it not?
What you would rather believe, evidence be damned.
The rest of your post follows on from this position and merely states what you wish to be true.
Wanting the world to work the way you happen to prefer does not make it so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by anastasia, posted 02-02-2007 10:40 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 2:09 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 121 of 184 (382152)
02-03-2007 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by anastasia
02-03-2007 1:30 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
Ana writes:
I feel that we are dualist in nature.
Again, this is just a feeling. Do you base all your conclusion regarding the world on feelings?
Ana writes:
I contend that my 'knowledge' of what I must do, of what is right in any situation, is not knowledge of the 'learned' variety, but of the imnparted.
Total rubbish. State how this is so.
Ana writes:
I only deny that 'right' is a product of our own invention.
With no reason apart from a 'feeling' that this is the case? Please show how this is so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 1:30 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 2:14 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 129 of 184 (382545)
02-05-2007 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by anastasia
02-03-2007 2:09 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
You make a very sad, old point here: you are the one asserting that we owe some entity our existance.
I make NO claim.
The burden of proof is on you to show that what you believe is positively true.
I say there is nothing there: you must bring evidence to support your positive claim.
If you can't show evidence that what you believe is true, then I have nothing to attempt argue against because you have provivded no positive evidence that what you calim has any basis in reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 2:09 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by anastasia, posted 02-05-2007 3:54 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 130 of 184 (382546)
02-05-2007 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by anastasia
02-03-2007 2:14 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
Again, you are making a claim and refuse to substantiate your positive reasons for doing so.
Please substantiate your claim or withdraw.
Unless, again, you are bored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 2:14 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 131 of 184 (382547)
02-05-2007 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by anastasia
02-04-2007 12:26 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
Ana writes:
Thankfulness without a benefactor is called vanity.
What a stupid, stupid position to hold.
I am thankful today that the sun is out. I know that there is no one to thank, but because human brains infer causality I 'feel' thankful.
How the hell is that vanity?
Ana writes:
in spite of the lack of evidence that there is no God.
As has been explained several time to you before: this is appallingly bad logic.
Ana writes:
Yours is that there is nothing more than what we see, mine is that there is.
Again: You. Need. To. Substantiate. Your. Assertion. With. Positive. Evidence.
I could assert that the IPU tells me how to live my live via telepathy and will take me away to its' cloud when I die to live with all the other invisible coloured unicorns and there is NO WAY that you could proove I was wrong.
Thats why you can't look for negative evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by anastasia, posted 02-04-2007 12:26 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by anastasia, posted 02-05-2007 4:46 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 132 of 184 (382548)
02-05-2007 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by anastasia
02-04-2007 4:08 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
You still have to show that this 'higher force' exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by anastasia, posted 02-04-2007 4:08 PM anastasia has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-09-2007 4:43 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 146 of 184 (382837)
02-06-2007 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by anastasia
02-05-2007 3:54 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
Ana writes:
I do good things because I believe there IS a right way. I believe that right is REAL.
Incorrect.
You do good things because you learn to believe they are good things. As I have said nth times.
Ana writes:
Why do some people do bad things?
People can do bad things for many reasons: At its most basic level it is because the cost is less than the reward.
Thats all it is.
You do good because breaking your leanrt code of ethics costs you more than you gain from the act.
It is a simple equation you negotiate every time you make a choice.
The thing to remember is there is loads more detail to this topic.
Pick up any degree level psychology text and you will see there is so much more than our own personal experience vis a vis cognitive emotional behaviour.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by anastasia, posted 02-05-2007 3:54 PM anastasia has not replied

  
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