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Author Topic:   Criticizing neo-Darwinism
nwr
Member
Posts: 5587
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 106 of 309 (344833)
08-29-2006 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Brad McFall
08-29-2006 8:10 AM


Re: back to NWR
Hi Brad.

I had hoped to have written up something detailed by now. But there is never enough time to do everything you want.

Let me comment in broad strokes.

I tend to look at evolution as a kind of learning system - learning by trial and error. Some people see learning as the basis for intelligence, so that would mark the processes of evolution as intelligent (in some sense of that word).

The conventional wisdom connects intelligence with consciousness. I don't. I connect it with the weak form of intentionality I mentioned in the last paragraph of Message 219. Conventional wisdom also connects learning with the ability to make true/false decisions. But I require only the ability to make pragmatic judgements (to go with what works).

Natural selection is a system that makes such pragmatic judgements. But if biological systems are intelligent (in the sense I indicated above), they ought to be able to learn to do better than just plain neo-Darwinian selection. I believe they have indeed learned to do better, and that evolution works better than one could conclude if one assumed only the neo-Darwinist mathematical model.

JAD wanted to exclude the environment a posterioriwhen not already, from ontongeny.

JAD assumes determinism, and a fairly strong form of determinism at that. With such an assumption, everything that happens is already laid out in the "plan" that determines future events. If evolution has happened in the past, then it is only because that was part of the "plan". Hence he sees the evolution that has happened as prescribed by the "plan". That leads to his "prescribed evolutionary hypothesis". Thus to JAD, the detailed processes documented in the theory of evolution are mere artifacts of carrying out the "plan."

What JAD apparently fails to notice, is that under his assumed determinism, science itself is an illusion. What scientists discover is merely a carrying out of the "plan". Likewise, his PEH is pointless. It will be adopted if the "plan" so dictates, otherwise it won't be adopted.

Personally, I favor some kind of indeterminism. But I readily admit that no empirical evidence could distinguish between determinism and indeterminism.

NOTE to readers: If you are wondering who is JAD, then check his A Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Brad McFall, posted 08-29-2006 8:10 AM Brad McFall has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Brad McFall, posted 08-29-2006 6:31 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3377 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 107 of 309 (344846)
08-29-2006 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by nwr
08-29-2006 6:09 PM


Re: back to NWR
Thanks,

Your paragraph{

quote:
With the alternative use of intentional language, we can observe that biological systems appear to be in a struggle for survival. But that could be simply an observation about the internal mechanisms of biology. Since the struggle may be unsuccessful (the species could go extinct), there is no reliance on final purpose as part of an explanation. But that use of intentional language does allow us to think of evolution as a kind of trial-and-error learning system, where a species experiments with recombinant DNA in the effort to enhance its odds of survival.
}

and further comments here make me understand why I like your idea as much as I really do do. I often fall back by default into some kind of adaptive algorithm view of change when I am not trying to think outside the box determinatively.

I have never given an explict thought to "consciousness" as an academic subject so I am may not have filiation/paternity with your position for the same reasons. But yours is much better to my mind than simple reductionism. I know I always like to learn.

I fully understand how you declude final purposes. I have no problem with this position because then it would only constrain me to associate artifical selection with human artifacts (and restrict evolutionary theory to "natural" selection etc) rather than facts of biology sense stricto(at Cornell for instance this is seperated with the Agriculture(Agriculture and Life Sciences) School vs the Biology Dept(also in the Arts School)). As long as the object is a cow, for instance, I care less whether the "data" comes from breeding in barn or in the forest by a water buffalo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by nwr, posted 08-29-2006 6:09 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4173 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 108 of 309 (372684)
12-29-2006 1:38 AM


Shame on ATBC forum
Criticizing darwinism is sometimes weird job. Thanks to administrators at EvC forum I was treated correctly and I was never denigrated here as is the case at ATBC forum. Yet it was me who was banned there. Reason: they considered me to be John Davison in disguise!

Alan Fox wrote me:


The moderator at AtBC seems pretty convinced that you are, in fact, John Davison in disguise. I am sure you could demonstrate that is not the case quite easily if you so wished.

My response:


So I should convince them that I am not John. What else? Should I convince them that Germany and France are different country too?

Or that the sun and the moon are different planets? Maybe they suspect moon to be disguised sun in the night, what do you mean?

No wonder when for darwinists also a girraffe is in fact disguised ancient fish. Nobody would persuade them that they are different species.

Anyway its hard to support idea that evolution is directed or prescribed when you are treated by morons like moderators on AtBC. Shame on them.


Replies to this message:
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 Message 111 by jar, posted 12-30-2006 12:12 PM MartinV has not yet responded

  
Alan Fox
Member (Idle past 326 days)
Posts: 32
From: France
Joined: 06-14-2006


Message 109 of 309 (372729)
12-29-2006 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by MartinV
12-29-2006 1:38 AM


Re: Shame on ATBC forum
Why not call their bluff and demonstrate you are indeed from Bratislava?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by MartinV, posted 12-29-2006 1:38 AM MartinV has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3377 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 110 of 309 (372970)
12-30-2006 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Alan Fox
12-29-2006 9:59 AM


Re: Shame on ATBC forum
Well, if one is trying to discuss or criticize Darwinism or neo-Darwinism outside the somewhat flexible EVC environs as I have done elsewhere say:

http://www.christianwebsite.com/talk/archive/index.php/t-8483.html

http://killdevilhill.com/darwinchat/list.php?f=120&t=761&a=2

it is hard to be able to have a posting sequence sustained long enough to begin to notice a difference among final cause, teleology and design(s) (on the discussion). Part of the problem IS language but simple observations such as different geo-political/national boundaries SHOULD be enough to trump DEBATE issues. Of course facts need to be marshaled nevertheless.

There is no reason that the distributive nature of the internet should need be explained. If I claim that Kant’s notion of “systematic constitution” is enough to discount Dawkins’ notion of the volume God dealt with that should be enough without telling you that I posted on ICR’s forum for a while for instance AS LONG AS I CONTINUE TO POST IN GOOD FAITH and with EVC stick to some kinds of moderation. NWR possessed an extraordinary intelligence compared to a norm of reaction on EVC. One thus really becomes subject to the “adaptive algorithm” issue while there is not the strict separations available and continuing on EVC even if in the literature (take Ruse’s book on Discontents of Darwinism (where he plays into Gould’s notion of the difference of formalism and functionalism but discontinues Gould MORE than me for example) such that teleology and final purpose ARE NOT separated PER purposive declinations of biologically conceptual language and one immediately has a reason to expect simple observations to be the needed remedy without ad hominums etc.

Consciousness needs to be given not remanded, in my opinion.

"Evolution" is no doubt ALSO a 'learning system' for me. I have learned something over VACATION and will write it up for Yousall but because I have posted so much more ON EVC than off, readers here would likely appreciate what I have to say here sooner than later.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31794
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 111 of 309 (372994)
12-30-2006 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by MartinV
12-29-2006 1:38 AM


Re: Shame on ATBC forum
For you to be JAD would show a greater miracle than has been demonstrated in thousands of years. It would be the equivalent of walking on water or turning water into Pilsner Urquell.

For you to be JAD, Sparky would have had to learn how to use a proxy server. Since we know for a fact that John has never been able to even master blogging, we can say with a high degree of probability that he has not mastered proxy servers and routing.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4173 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 112 of 309 (382432)
02-04-2007 5:18 PM


Readmission of John Davison.
I don't know if this is the right place to ask the question but anyway: Is it not possible to readmit John Davison to present his views here or in some special thread? Personaly I consider his Manifesto for something that should be discussed as much as possible.

Personaly I did not find yet any complex rebuttal of his claims from Manifesto and on the other hand I found many facts that supports his citations and views presented there (like that of Robert Broom's of end of evolution and R. Punnett's on saltationism in mimicry).

I see - discussion with John Davison at EvC some times ago was turbulent one - but was the problem closed, is it really closed for good?

Thank you.


Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 02-04-2007 5:33 PM MartinV has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31794
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 113 of 309 (382436)
02-04-2007 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by MartinV
02-04-2007 5:18 PM


Re: Readmission of John Davison.
JAD has had permission to post here all along. The only restriction is that it must be in the Showcase forum. EvC has never limited what John can say and we have bent over backwards to hold John to a far lower standard of behavior than we would any regular member.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by MartinV, posted 02-04-2007 5:18 PM MartinV has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by MartinV, posted 02-05-2007 2:21 PM jar has responded
 Message 116 by derwood, posted 02-06-2007 9:17 AM jar has not yet responded

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4173 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 114 of 309 (382617)
02-05-2007 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
02-04-2007 5:33 PM


Re: Readmission of John Davison.
It's a pity John has no full access. I have with John Davison correct experience at ISCID Brainstorm where he was abused in very coarse manner but he did't respond in the same way.

I know myself how hard is it to be correct when you are alone against many - in ATBC forum I became crude at the end because of constatly primitive abuses there. Darwinists at AtBC banned me in the end by pretext I am John (knowing well it's a lie).

Yet I admit gladly that moderation on EvC as far as concern me was correct.

Neverthenless whether you fully readmit John Davison or not his Manifesto will remain in my eyes the most inspiring anti-darwinistic summary I have ever came across.

Edited by MartinV, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 02-04-2007 5:33 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Brad McFall, posted 02-05-2007 3:26 PM MartinV has not yet responded
 Message 117 by jar, posted 02-06-2007 10:23 AM MartinV has responded

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3377 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 115 of 309 (382632)
02-05-2007 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by MartinV
02-05-2007 2:21 PM


Re: Readmission of John Davison.
Dear Martin;

as you seemed especially interested in trying to distinguish John's views from mine aka mimicry etc I will try to look into a possible source of John's heterodox view. I have a slightly different view about Panbiogeography than the trio Craw, Grehan and Heads
http://www.axiompanbiog.com
and yet in seeing how much stock they put in meiotic drive and Crow's ideas it is possible that John's position developed from a similiar frustration with the orthodoxy.

At best this dissent seemed generalized to a notion of "phenotype" and not the particulars of some kind of "genetics", at least that is how it seemed to me. This, at least makes sense in terms of the elite positions at Cornell and beyond that I came across in the 80s.

Crow had ideas and so did his student Dr. Davison. Perhaps you have already spoken with John about this. I had not had the opportunity to get this far with Dr. D. because he felt it was not necessary to engage me in a one on one (you managed this much in the mimicry thread) and then perhaps he got too distracted by the rather quick secular responses available on EvC ( I do not find it a problem to "wear them out" if it is necessary to get a point across).

The trick is,as to how "the history of biology" is being written is, to seperate some "orthodoxy" (Crow) from the "heterodoxy" (JAD). Like you I think this is possible but how fruitful it will be I do not know. I perfer a simple analysis of 1-D symmetry of *whatever* "the position effect" would return on a highly "philosophical" level (and this is hard to achieve with the fact checkers here on EVC) but when JAD was posting near this place in thought he was quickly getting into clearly novel creationist thoughts rather than directing responses to very very very specific details. That is fine for anyone who continues to post in response ...so outside an historical account of how heterodoxy prevails the blindness in the orthodox doxology remains, almost prescripted (see my next post on "Darwin Day").

Edited by Brad McFall, : reference to thread; link


This message is a reply to:
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derwood
Member (Idle past 220 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 116 of 309 (382881)
02-06-2007 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
02-04-2007 5:33 PM


Re: Readmission of John Davison.
That is so true...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 02-04-2007 5:33 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31794
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 117 of 309 (382901)
02-06-2007 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by MartinV
02-05-2007 2:21 PM


Re: Readmission of John Davison.
It's a pity John has no full access.

In what way?

John has full access to the showcase.

He can start threads.

He can post on any subject he wises.

He can choose to have people tossed out of his threads.

He can respond in a totally off topic manner.

He is free from moderation and can behave in ways that will get any regular member suspended.

In addition, all regular members can enter the Showcase to reply to him only by getting permission and are subject to exclusion at any time simply on the John's whim.

Although John's behavior is free from moderation, all who wish to reply are subject to moderation just as they are in the regular forum.

I would say that EvC has bent over backwards to accommodate John and the only thing stopping John from posting is John.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by MartinV, posted 02-05-2007 2:21 PM MartinV has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by MartinV, posted 02-06-2007 2:44 PM jar has responded

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4173 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 118 of 309 (382985)
02-06-2007 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by jar
02-06-2007 10:23 AM


Re: Readmission of John Davison.
Jar,

John Davison wrote me just now that the showcase thread is closed to him and he cannot post there or anywhere else at EvC.

Can you check it please?

(Btw I had probably the same or similar problem only a few days ago - I entered my name and correct password in login screen, the name and password were accepted, the login window disappeared and yet on the main window at the left corner was still message - you are not logged. I contacted admin, but problem somehow then disapeared.)

Thank you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by jar, posted 02-06-2007 10:23 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by AdminAsgara, posted 02-06-2007 3:01 PM MartinV has not yet responded
 Message 120 by jar, posted 02-06-2007 5:25 PM MartinV has not yet responded

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 647 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 119 of 309 (382990)
02-06-2007 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by MartinV
02-06-2007 2:44 PM


Re: Readmission of John Davison.
If John is having problems accessing the Showcase then he needs to contact an admin here. We are not going to discuss his permissions with a third party.


AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

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    This message is a reply to:
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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31794
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 120 of 309 (383018)
    02-06-2007 5:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 118 by MartinV
    02-06-2007 2:44 PM


    Re: Readmission of John Davison.
    Jar,

    John Davison wrote me just now that the showcase thread is closed to him and he cannot post there or anywhere else at EvC.

    That sounds like John. He never was very bright.

    If you look in the showcase you will see a thread of his that is closed. It is closed because it reached the 300 post limit for threads. If you waste the time to read the thread you will find that most of the posts in it are actually from JAD and simply more of his simpering and whimpering.

    JAD knows where the Proposed New Topics forum is and he also knows how to contact the Admins here at EvC, but it is far easier for him to cry about how folk abuse him.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 118 by MartinV, posted 02-06-2007 2:44 PM MartinV has not yet responded

      
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