Buzsaw writes:
1. The above statement as well as if the universe is a closed and finite system makes my point in another thread that there indeed was no before the universe and no outside of the universe if it is a closed, bordered and finite system. Thus our resident Biblical theists do indeed have the problem that I raised in my thread that the Biblical god in whom they believe could not possibly exist on the basis of such a universe.
2. I don't see how you can exempt laws of physics from the science of a system origin hypothesis which itself defies the the laws observed within the system. Isn't that what you are forbidding ID creatonists to do? Essentially you are assuming that the entire energy of the universe popped into existence suddenly from nothing. The only other alternative is that the Universe is infinite without beginning or end as we claim for the intelligent designer, the source of all existing energy.
Is it me or are those two statements self-contradictory? In the first statment you talk about there being no such thing as 'before' the universe. In the second statement you say
Essentially you are assuming that the entire energy of the universe popped into existence suddenly from nothing.
Now the wording of this strongly implies that there was a point in time 'before' the universe when there was nothing, and then
some time later the universe existed. The two statements are fundamentally incompatible.
Buzsaw writes:
I don't see how you can exempt laws of physics from the science of a system origin hypothesis which itself defies the the laws observed within the system.
I'm assuming you're talking about Thermodymics being unapplicable with the 'creation' of the universe here (since this would be on topic)? As has been mentioned there are very good reasons why Thermodynamics is unapplicable to t=0, it isn't just claimed for convenience. Thermodynamics is an emergent property from a large system including staggering numbers of particles. A gas consisting of 10 atoms would not display the same properties as a gas consisting of a molar quantity. From my understanding of current theories there were no atoms (or particles of any kind) in existence anywhere near to t=0 (speaking in relative terms), so what exactly would Thermodynamics be acting upon?
Buzsaw writes:
The only other alternative is that the Universe is infinite without beginning or end
Not really on topic, but why does a universe 'with no beginning or end' have to be infinite?
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