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Author Topic:   Did Religion Give Birth to Morals?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 68 (383226)
02-07-2007 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Open MInd
02-06-2007 10:52 PM


Can you post anything on Topic?
Is there any scientifically proven fact called a moral?
No, of course not. Morals are simply agreements between individuals in a given milieu.
Is it possible for a moral to exist outside of religion?
Certainly. Morals are totally unrelated to religion and exist only within the confine of a social contract.
No animals are moral.
Humans are just animals.
They find nothing wrong with killing for food.
Humans kill for food.
They would kill another animal over its mate.
Some humans kill another animal for its mate, King David is a good example.
Why would humans act with morals from a purely evolutionary perspective?
Because behaving in such a fashion increases the prospects for cooperation.
Unless one argues that science is a religion, it seems obvious that the birth of morals is the religions of the world and that religion controls every individual human beings life.
It may seem obvious to you, but so far you have posted nothing which would support such an assertion.
Beyond that, not one single thing in your Original Post supports or is even related to the topic.
Do you have ANYTHING to contribute related to the question "Did Religion Give Birth to Morals?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Open MInd, posted 02-06-2007 10:52 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Open MInd, posted 02-07-2007 3:00 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 68 (383246)
02-07-2007 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Open MInd
02-07-2007 2:54 PM


Re: The Origin of Morals.
Many people on this board have tried to correct my statement by saying that human beings are animals. This is a common statement said by nonreligious people.
Not true. I said that and I am very religious.
However, the idea that religion gave birth to morals comes from a religious perspective.
Not true. I am a very religious person yet understand that morals are a social contract.
If morals find no place in an evolutionary world than one must look at the world from a religious perspective.
There is no evidence nor have you provided any evidence that there is no place for morals in an evolutionary world.
Do you feel bad after you kill someone?
What?
Do any of you consider the Nazis to be moral people? They were very polite people and they caused the death of millions of people. Was Hitler a moral person?
Hitler was a Christian. He based his behavior on Christian dogma.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Open MInd, posted 02-07-2007 2:54 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Open MInd, posted 02-10-2007 7:41 PM jar has replied
 Message 60 by Open MInd, posted 02-10-2007 7:57 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 68 (383257)
02-07-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Open MInd
02-07-2007 3:00 PM


Still more nonsense.
Evolution does not make use of intelligence.
Possibly true if you mean that Evolution is not directed.
The whole idea of evolution is to show how life on earth could evolve with no intervention of a supernatural being (with no intelligence).
Not true. And you have been told that MANY times. I have also shown you documented PROOF that that is not the case.
In the words of the Clergy Project:
We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children.
Yet you continue to repeat falsehoods.
Why is that?
When you say humans act with morals because they want to preserve their population, you are leaving the theory of evolution because human beings act with intelligence.
What?
What does that have to do with anything?
The theory of evolution does not work with intelligence. Rather, many would claim that evolution is not at work today among humans because of the technology that human intelligence has invented. Even the most unfit human beings survive these days. Therefore, intelligence is a contradiction to evolution.
More Gish Gallop bullshit.
First it is simply a lie or an example of absolute total willful ignorance. You said: "Even the most unfit human beings survive these days." That is not even true in the MOST advanced countries.
Hey Cliff, folk die.
Hey Cliff, intelligence evolved.
Not only can you not post anything on topic, you refuse to even address the content of replies to your messages.
Please look again at Message 13.
The topic is "Did Religion Give Birth to Morals?"
Not one thing in your response to me has anything to do with the topic.
Do you have any evidence that morals only existed after religion was invented, or that morals are in any way restricted to religion?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Open MInd, posted 02-07-2007 3:00 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 68 (383261)
02-07-2007 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Open MInd
02-07-2007 3:00 PM


A few FACTS
Here's a little known fact.
The smartest animal is the pig.
No, I'm telling you, your average oinker, yeah, yeah, yeah, scientists say; if a pig had thumbs and a language it could be trained to do simple manual labor.
Yeah, yeah, they'd give you 20, 30 years of loyal service, then at the retirement dinner you could eat them.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Open MInd, posted 02-07-2007 3:00 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Open MInd, posted 02-07-2007 7:28 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 68 (383373)
02-07-2007 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Open MInd
02-07-2007 7:28 PM


Re: A few FACTS
Let me try to explain why Message 24 is both On Topic and Pertinent.
The quote in Message 24 is from Cliff Clavin, a regular patron of Cheers™.
Everything Cliff said was always off topic, and also incorrect. He was a wealth of misinformation.
So far that is all you have shown us have been Clavinisms.
It's a little known fact that the tan became popular in what is known as the Bronze Age.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Open MInd, posted 02-07-2007 7:28 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 61 of 68 (384289)
02-10-2007 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Open MInd
02-10-2007 7:41 PM


Re: The Origin of Morals.
You said that Hitler was a Christian. This does not answer my question. The question was, was Hitler a moral person? Was the entire Germany acting with morals?
Morality depends entirely on the era, community and milieu. The answer to your question is of course, "Yes and No", depending on the perspective of the person making the judgment. From within a moral framework where the Jew was seen as "The Killer of Christ" Hitler was certainly acting within a moral position. And while the Final Solution was certainly more drastic than others that had been tried by many nations, it was patterned on the policy and practices as well as successes of the US in dealing with our own undesirables, the Native Americans.
In that case religion, specifically Christianity, gave birth to a morality that the rest of the world found horrific.
On a side note, I have another question. Why should "I" not steal if I would not get caught? It is logical why a whole society should not go around stealing. However, I don't think you can give me one good reason why I should not steal something without the fear of getting caught.
Yeah, that old sophomoric conundrum comes up often.
Would you want someone to steal from you simply because they could get away with it?
As another aside, it is almost always the Christians who bring up that false dilemma. It appears to indicate that many if not most Christians' ethics are based solely on the fear of being caught and punished and it definitely is one of the reasons so many folk turn away from Christianity.
Why would one want to associate with any people who's civility is maintained only through fear and that seem to have no person code of morality?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Open MInd, posted 02-10-2007 7:41 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 68 (384291)
02-10-2007 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Open MInd
02-10-2007 7:57 PM


Re: The Origin of Morals.
You continue to claim that you are a very religious person. I challenge you on that claim. Do you believe in a supernatural being that created the world? You can't claim that your morals are not part of your religion because you don't even have a religion!
Silly Rabbit. LOL
I doubt that there is anyone at EvC who's religious beliefs have been explored in any greater depth than mine. Feel free to challenge away. Hell, everyone else does.
Also, I have never claimed that my morals are not part of my religion. Such an assertion from you is simply absurd.
What I have said is that it is not necessary to be part of any religion to be moral, and that morality is NOT simply a creation of some religion but rather a social contract that evolves over time.
But go ahead and challenge whether or not a am a very religious person. You might want to do a little research on the issue beforehand though.
Start with Message 1; Message 1; Message 1; this post; anudder post and if you need more, let me know.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Open MInd, posted 02-10-2007 7:57 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Open MInd, posted 02-10-2007 8:19 PM jar has replied
 Message 66 by anastasia, posted 02-10-2007 8:49 PM jar has not replied
 Message 68 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2007 10:53 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 68 (384301)
02-10-2007 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Open MInd
02-10-2007 8:19 PM


Re: The Origin of Morals.
I would like to ask you one question, "why" did this supernatural being that you believe in create the world?
I am clueless on that. Do you know what GOD had in mind? LOL

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Open MInd, posted 02-10-2007 8:19 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
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