Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Where is the Good Non American Music???
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 172 (380885)
01-29-2007 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
01-26-2007 11:14 PM


The New Pornographers, The Futureheads, David Bowie, Pink Floyd, The Smiths, The Cure, Echo & The Bunnymen, Elvis Costello, Belle & Sebastian, The Clash, Queen, U2, and The Pogues, just off the top of my head.
You might not like them, of course.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 01-26-2007 11:14 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 172 (380886)
01-29-2007 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by nator
01-28-2007 7:59 PM


Re: Prophex likes his musicians crazy
Eliott Smith was mentally ill. He was addicted to drugs and alcohol and was clearly clinically depressed.
And... y'know. Died by stabbing himself in the chest. That's the kind of suicide that takes dedication.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by nator, posted 01-28-2007 7:59 PM nator has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 172 (381232)
01-30-2007 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by joshua221
01-29-2007 9:16 PM


Re: just wondering
The Beatles were just ordinary people without "agendas". They were into having fun and writing songs about nothing. They loved music and melody. They lived life for fun and were not in any sense "true artists".
Watch an interview with the Beatles and you see it right away.
Leaving aside that some of the best artists in any medium were the ones who were just messing around and having a good time... in what universe did John Lennon not have an agenda?

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by joshua221, posted 01-29-2007 9:16 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 3:51 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 172 (381522)
01-31-2007 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by joshua221
01-31-2007 3:45 PM


Re: just wondering
Because intelligent human beings don't "live for fun"
"Man had always assumed he was more intelligent than dolphins because he achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars, and so on - while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons."
-Douglas Adams
people who change the world don't "live for fun".
Unless the change they want to make is to get people to appreciate a life lived for love, brotherhood, and fun.
Sorta like John Lennon.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 3:45 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 172 (381529)
01-31-2007 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by joshua221
01-31-2007 3:51 PM


Re: just wondering
Music made by idiots sucks.
John Lennon wasn't shit. lol
Well, that was an interesting discussion. Be sure to let us know if the intense amount of thought you've put into the subject leads you to believe that something "totally, like, blows."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 3:51 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 4:04 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 172 (381537)
01-31-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by joshua221
01-31-2007 4:04 PM


Re: just wondering
Ah... let's see.
Evidence? Examples?
Off the top of my head, anyone who's ever written a fantastic comedy? Which would include anyone from early Woody Allen to William Shakespeare.
John Lennon wasn't anything.
Gotta tell ya, this isn't wildly different, in terms of content, from the original post.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 4:04 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 4:47 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 172 (381539)
01-31-2007 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by kuresu
01-31-2007 4:05 PM


Re: just wondering
music isn't about being tortured. music is about fun.
Oh, I don't know about that. I know Prophex wants to avoid classical music, but you'd be hard pressed to say Mozart wasn't tortured in his later days. (Or, for modern music, that Kurt Cobain, or Trent Reznor, or fill-in-the-miserable-bastard wasn't the same.)
I think the lesson of the day is, "music (read: art) isn't for anything." It makes absolutely no demands on the mindset of the artist, only on what the art does to the mindset of the audience.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by kuresu, posted 01-31-2007 4:05 PM kuresu has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 172 (381566)
01-31-2007 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by joshua221
01-31-2007 4:47 PM


Re: just wondering
He said that he wasn't at all messing around when he made them.
If you can watch Sleeper and think Woody Allen wasn't fucking around and having a good time, then there's not a whole lot to say.
This isn't to say he didn't get serious at that time as well. (ie, Annie Hall.) But it's not until much later in his career that the top priority in his movies stopped being to make the audience have a good, fierce laugh.
I have read Shakespeare and he is exactly like the Beatles are to music. Exactly.
I know your intent here is to insult Shakespeare, but honestly, you're just inadvertently praising the Beatles.
William Shakespeare wrote plays that resonate with audiences across centuries. No matter how the plays are staged, how they're acted, or who's watching them, the characters manage to belt the audience in the face every single time. This is, without exaggerating, a feat has not been matched by anyone in any medium.*
If your criteria for "not an idiot" doesn't include Shakespeare, then you're operating on some Bizarro-world definition of idiot, that has no meaning to anyone but you.
---
*Although Eliott Smith, had he not lived a life so amazing that it prompted him to stab himself in the chest to escape it, would probably say the Beatles resonate across decades in the same way. We'll see how well they manage to hold up in 2400AD before saying for sure, though.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 4:47 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 5:14 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 172 (381614)
01-31-2007 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by joshua221
01-31-2007 5:14 PM


Re: just wondering
What I mean to say is that Shakespeare was an average joe just like the Beatles... I think they knew it.
Not to degrade their efforts and work, sure it is good. But they are not what the true artists are made of, and that is so apparent.
Well, I'm sure John Lennon and William Shakespeare appreciate your magnanimity.
But perhaps you could, for the sake of argument, give an example of the "things about life" not understood by either one?

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 5:14 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by joshua221, posted 02-01-2007 6:56 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 172 (381876)
02-02-2007 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by joshua221
02-01-2007 6:56 PM


Re: just wondering
This sort of life in some cases involves accomplishing something great and having something to show for it, the men that you have talked of were not men who had anything to do with truth or an examined life.
Okay... to quote another great musician, "you're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything."
You say they don't have anything to do with truth, but you gotta tighten that up a bit. I've already gone over the way in which Shakespeare created characters that strike a deep chord of empathy with audiences across several centuries... if that has nothing to do with truth, what does? If someone can so thoroughly understand the human mind that he strikes universal themes, that continue their relevance in a world so far removed in time as to be unrecognizable... again, an accomplishment no other human has yet matched... how can he possibly be said to have lived an unexamined life?
What is this "truth" you want artists to reach?
Read these lyrics from "The Story of An Artist" by Daniel Johnston
It's kinda trite, actually. He could have shortened that up to "nobody understands me, stay out of my room!", and not really lost anything. I'd rather listen to a Smiths song; they do the same thing, but have a little more self-awareness about the silliness of what they're doing.
I think this will be the only time anyone has ever said this, but it seems like Morrissey lived a bit more of an examined life than this fella.
It's one thing to say, "I'm an artist, I'm an artist!" over and over again, as Johnston does in those lyrics. It's another to actually go create something that has an emotionally resonant effect, like Shakespeare or the Beatles. Personally, I'd consider the latter the more admirable work.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by joshua221, posted 02-01-2007 6:56 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by joshua221, posted 02-02-2007 10:52 AM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 172 (381889)
02-02-2007 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by joshua221
02-02-2007 10:52 AM


Re: just wondering
I acknowledge that Shakespeare was a very effective playwright. But being about to "strike a deep chord of empathy with audiences across several centuries" has nothing to do with what I am referring to here.
Then for the love of crimney, please explain what you are referring to here. You said it was truth, and an examined life. But apparently, expressing universally appreciable truths about the human life, more effectively than anyone, ever, does not qualify.
What separates Harper Lee from Jean Paul Sartre?
A black poloneck and a crapload of cigarettes.
But seriously, is there a reason you're shifting the focus onto apples v. oranges now? Why don't we ask what separates tapioca pudding from beekeeping?
Fortunately, we can agree on one thing... Hemingway sucked.
This is exactly the kind of truth I am referring to. What is discussed in these famous English writers novels and short stories has NOTHING to do with truth.
Even if what they say happens to be true!
And incidentally, Lee, Fitzgerald, and Hemingway were all American.
I guess Plato was right when he talked about those who would work and those who would become Philosopher Kings.
Tell me, who would you say truly grasps the eternal and unchangeable... the author who writes about human emotions that are still relatable after centuries, or the musician who whines about people watching TV?

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by joshua221, posted 02-02-2007 10:52 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by joshua221, posted 02-02-2007 3:18 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 172 (381936)
02-02-2007 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by joshua221
02-02-2007 3:18 PM


You should probably stop admonishing people to read more carefully, if all you took from that post was "Hemingway sucks."
However, if that's where you're touching down, I'll go ahead and provide the same post for you again, in Hemingwayspeak.
quote:
I want him to explain. He says "truth". I ask him. Shakespeare wrote. He wrote plays. He wrote beauty. He wrote beautiful plays.
He compares things differently. They're not related. I tell him.
He says truth isn't truth. But truth is truth.
The author held up, and the musician didn't like TV.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by joshua221, posted 02-02-2007 3:18 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by kuresu, posted 02-02-2007 5:57 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 125 by joshua221, posted 02-02-2007 7:54 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 127 by joshua221, posted 02-03-2007 5:11 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 172 (382625)
02-05-2007 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by joshua221
02-05-2007 1:48 PM


Re: just wondering
No but there seems to be a connection between those qualities and those who do "understand life" better than everyone else.
If you feel like getting around to it, I'd still be interested to hear what about life, specifically, was not understood by William Shakespeare or John Lennon.
I'm reasonably sure you'd rather say, "they weren't true artists" another 15,000 times, but hope springs eternal.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by joshua221, posted 02-05-2007 1:48 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by joshua221, posted 02-07-2007 2:21 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 172 (383239)
02-07-2007 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by joshua221
02-07-2007 2:21 PM


Re: just wondering
All I am saying is that from what I have read and heard of Lennon and Shakespeare put up next to Smith and Johnston it doesn't hold up.
Should we start by going over what the word "specifically" means?
The lyrics to Imagine are horrible.
That wasn't a Beatles song, just fyi. But I agree, it was substandard.
So, there's one song you don't like, out of a twenty year career. Glad we're narrowing the field so far.
The words in Shakespeare's plays are cool and good sure, but there is nothing that you can take out of Shakespeare and show me that would amaze me, inspire me, or make me feel that Shakespeare was not some average joe who learned to write the english language down on paper.
Yeah, I didn't ask you if you liked it. I asked you what he didn't understand about life (your words, remember) that was understood by Smith and Johnston.
You see there are 2 different kinds of people at this level, those who know and those who don't.
Fabulous. What, specifically, did Shakespeare not know?
The ones who don't are greatly appreciated by those millions of others who don't and the ones that do but are misunderstood by the masses like here in this microcosm at evc.
I see. It's an Indie Rock Pete thing.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by joshua221, posted 02-07-2007 2:21 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024