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Author | Topic: Fact Theory Falacy | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
toff Inactive Member |
quote: No, these would not be 'potential' facts - these are facts. The theory of evolution is a theory which attempts to link these facts together. This theory has been sufficiently researched to the point where it, too, is fact (ie., a scientific fact - something sufficiently demonstrated/evidenced that it would be perverse to deny it). And on your last point, the original poster was quite correct. Something new can easily occur due to mutation, including (for example) a missing base pair. Many genes have the effect of preventing things from occurring; the absence of this effect allows the thing to occur - and viola, something new!
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Peter Member (Idle past 1479 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
quote: Personally I would have thought this was a pretty simple question. A THEORY is an explanation for the existence of a number of observablephenomena (FACTS). Evolution IS a theory ... not a fact. No matter how many observationsof the world support it, it will always be a theory. Evolutionary theory attempts to explain the diversity of life on earth, and as Darwin's title says the origin of species. A belief (no matter where it comes from) is NOT fact. I believe that Evolution is a feasible, well supported explanaitonfor the diversity of life on earth. This is because it plausibly explains many FACTS which can be observed. What facts? A couple would be: Anatomical similarities between ALL vertebrates.The fossil record (whatever you believe about it fossils DO exist). I'm not arguing what those facts are at the moment, I'm discussing the nature of FACT and THEORY.
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Cobra_snake Inactive Member |
quote: You misunderstood me a bit. 1. Millions of mutations would have to occur to create the present diversity.2. These mutations would have to INCREASE information. 3. Give me an example of a mutation that INCREASES information.
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Cobra_snake Inactive Member |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by toff:
Many genes have the effect of preventing things from occurring; the absence of this effect allows the thing to occur - and viola, something new! [/B][/QUOTE] Well evolution needs to explain how the information got there BEFORE it was removed.
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joz Inactive Member |
quote: From:
http://bostonreview.mit.edu/br22.1/doolittle.html quote: IOW the original gene was duplicated then changed enough to assume a function (the duplicate had no function before as the original kept its own role), Does that qualify as new information to you? Oh and how is kingpenguin doing on that proof of 1+1=2? [This message has been edited by joz, 02-07-2002]
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KingPenguin Member (Idle past 7884 days) Posts: 286 From: Freeland, Mi USA Joined: |
i still dont know why i have to and i dont know what you mean by it. but in my original statement i meant for the answer you would supply would have to be as blunt and precise as 1+1=2. you take a molten rock and then find another molten rock, move it to that rock and you have a pile of two rocks. theres no question to how the pile was formed and theres no question as to how the rocks were formed. that is how it happened.
however you cannot see 2 rocks and automatically know exactly how they got together in a pile without doing it yourself. any assumptions you made would be a general guess and you wouldnt have any support of it. which inevitably means nothing can be entirely proven. ------------------"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi [This message has been edited by KingPenguin, 02-07-2002]
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3941 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
quote: I havn't investigated 1+1=2, but I suspect it is a fundimental assumption on mathematics, that hasn't been proven. I may be wrong. The other part - You have wandered into geo-territory! What are you talking about? Make it clearer, and I'll try to respond. Moose ------------------BS degree, geology, '83 Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U Old Earth evolution - Yes Godly creation - Maybe
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joz Inactive Member |
quote: Actualy i gave you a series of steps to follow in order to prove 1+1=2 (yes Moose it can be done!) they are as follows: Step 1) Define 1. Step 2) define addition. Step 3) define 2. Step 4)combine steps 1 through 3. Your example is flawed in that if you combine a pile of molten rock withanother pile of molten rock the product is one big pile of molten rock.... i.e 1+1=1 not quite right eh? If your rocks were not molten then you would have 1 rock plus another rock is a pile of 2 rocks BUT you have not proven 1+1=2 you have merely demonstrated that in this specific case two rocks are two rocks.... So if you cannot prove 1+1=2 i suggest you stop using it as an example of a fact.... [This message has been edited by joz, 02-07-2002]
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
" Message 32 of 39 02-07-2002 04:25 AM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by TrueCreation: "Here are the FACTS:" --Lets see what we got. "Organisms are related to each other to a greater or lesser degree (this is obvious, a zebra is more closely related to a horse then to a dandylion)." --To a degree yes this is fact. "Organisms demonstrate that they have common descent (morphology, genetics, fossil record)."--No, this is not fact, this is interperetation of the evidence in contrast with the un-observable past. "Allele frequencies in populations can and do occur in response to envrinmental changes (the famous peppered moths)."--Yup, natural selection. "Organisms reproduce, and have more offspring then can possible survive. THe offspring had inherited genes from their parents, so that they are very similar but also unique. The expression of some of these genes may improve certain individuals' chances of survival given current conditions."--To a degree this is true. "Mutations can and do occur that are beneficial, or can even endow an organism with something totally new (like the bacteria that was observed to have developed an enzyme capable of digesting nylon due to a missing base pair in a DNA sequence for an existing gene)."--You almost had it right, untill you said that it created something new, and then contredicted yourself when you said 'due to a missing base pair', something was missing for this to take place it seems. --So would these be the potential facts? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, these would not be 'potential' facts - these are facts. The theory of evolution is a theory which attempts to link these facts together. This theory has been sufficiently researched to the point where it, too, is fact (ie., a scientific fact - something sufficiently demonstrated/evidenced that it would be perverse to deny it).And on your last point, the original poster was quite correct. Something new can easily occur due to mutation, including (for example) a missing base pair. Many genes have the effect of preventing things from occurring; the absence of this effect allows the thing to occur - and viola, something new!" --Something new in the scence as you describe yes, but not in the scence of evolution taking place, to put it simply 'viola!' you just proved a theory on creation in biological diversity. --The one fact that has fallacy as I indicated previously, is the "Organisms demonstrate that they have common descent (morphology, genetics, fossil record).", and as you just stated, this is the conclusion that some people would come up with after examining the other facts that they presented in the first post. ------------------
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toff Inactive Member |
quote: That is precisely what evolution DOES explain. As so often happens, when creationists get an answer they don't like, they merely shift the goalposts. Mutation is possible to have accounted for all 'information' being there and being removed/modified.----------------------------------------------------------- --Something new in the scence as you describe yes, but not in the scence of evolution taking place, to put it simply 'viola!' you just proved a theory on creation in biological diversity. I fear you have understood neither the original post nor my reply to it. A missing base pair (for example), occurring by mutation, can easily create something new (to that organism) in the organism that possesses it. This is precisely evolution taking place, and has nothing to do with creation, sorry.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1479 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
quote: Yes ... and according to geneticists you can see this in modernbirds. The genes exist in modern birds for teeth, but are 'switched off'.The information is there, but other factors stop it from being used.
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toff Inactive Member |
quote: Exactly. There are any number of other examples, which can be found by anyone who cares to do the research. Genetic mutation (in its various forms) can (at least in theory) result in virtually any change in the host. That is something that not even creationists could disagree with.
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"I fear you have understood neither the original post nor my reply to it. A missing base pair (for example), occurring by mutation, can easily create something new (to that organism) in the organism that possesses it. This is precisely evolution taking place, and has nothing to do with creation, sorry."
--Well then I would have to say evolution takes place if this is your accusation, evolution in a scence as I depict it out of the Creation theory, this is exactly what is needed for diversity from a less specialized kind. According to what you said you can do this: Take a Chain that is this long:---------------------------- Remove a peice of it so that it is this long:------------------------ And mabye along the line of these mutations, someday you will get one this long:----------------------------------------- You need something else in there to make evolution a more plausable explination than is depicted from your accusation of this is all 'E'volution needs. -------------------
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"The genes exist in modern birds for teeth, but are 'switched off'.
The information is there, but other factors stop it from being used." --This seems to be a decline, which does happen, is there an example of incline? --Basically what you need is Fish to Philosopher, not Philosopher to Fish. ------------------ [This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 02-08-2002]
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lbhandli Inactive Member |
Nylon digestion by bacteria has been observed naturally and then replicated in the lab. Of course, the words you are using are rather difficult to define. How exactly are you defining information and measuring it? What is incline and decline in a manner that is quantifiable?
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