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Author Topic:   The Flood
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1708 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 31 of 188 (383831)
02-09-2007 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by petrophysics1
02-09-2007 10:39 AM


Re: sapropel
petrophysics:

It's a word which shows up in petroleum geology in particular as it may be a source of oil and natural gas.

Carl Baugh is oily and gives people gas.

Don't know who Carl Baugh is.

Don't look here or your luck will run out.

That was a response to Lithodid-Man who had mentioned he had never heard of sapropel.

I know, Petro. Don't mind me. I was just jamming a bit on your riff.

;) Welcome to EvC.

__

Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.


Archer

All species are transitional.


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Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 1041 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 32 of 188 (383871)
02-09-2007 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by RAZD
02-09-2007 7:09 AM


Re: A few other points...
RAZD writes:

Don't be so quick to rule out freshwater mussels.

I wasn't ruling them out. I am very aware of FW mussels. I was referring specifically to mytiloids, and more specifically genus Mytilus which are marine. I was pointing it out as a potential error on the part of the author if he claimed Mytilus were freshwater.


Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4063 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 33 of 188 (383906)
02-09-2007 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
02-08-2007 1:57 PM


nemesis writes:

The second question is geared towards biblicists. This study, conducted in 1993, has had virtually no coverage. And of that which is mentioned, it is routinely dumbed down in an apparent view of it being inconsequential. Do you find it disheartening that some people have divorced themselves from this discovery, and if so, do you attribute it to them denying it over its greater implications-- such as, the denial of the Bible's historicity?

I am being humorous, and I promise not to post any more in this thread where honest scientific points are being made, but IMO there is nothing to date in the way of science that will make the Bible more likely to be true in its account of the Great Flood. All we have are basins filling and oceans spilling, where in the Bible, it clearly RAINED. :)


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Mespo
Member (Idle past 995 days)
Posts: 158
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA
Joined: 09-19-2002


Message 34 of 188 (383949)
02-09-2007 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
02-08-2007 1:57 PM


If the Noah flood story was a true reflection...
... of the Black Sea flooding, then there should be nothing about the flood waters receding. The Black Sea basin is STILL flooded, so Noah should have drifted ad naseum in his Ark, until his heirs gave rise to Kevin Costner and that Gawd-awful movie "Waterworld".

(:raig


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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 188 (383977)
02-09-2007 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by RAZD
02-08-2007 9:12 PM


Re: This is old.
RAZD

This is a local flood caused by the rising sea level breaching into what was a low lying freshwater lake.

Perhaps this breaching is what is referred to in this bible

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

The fountains of the deep could be an apt description of such a breech me thinks.If it were to occur at the same time as ,say, the rainfall of springtime, it is not too far a stretch to imagine a story such as Noah's flood being put together by survivors of the event.


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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 36 of 188 (384016)
02-09-2007 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Coragyps
02-08-2007 4:49 PM


Ryan and Pitman
Hmm. This all seems to be an extension, if you will, of Ryan and Pitman's book Noah's Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries about the Event That Changed History. I read it several years ago - pretty plausible-sounding stuff.

Yes, a large percentage of Wilson's book is derived from the work of Ryan and Pitman as well as a few other lesser known trailblazers.

As to your question: I'd be astonished if big floods weren't recorded in mythology. I'd be more astonished by far if anyone could come up with a scrap of evidence for a truly global flood in the last half-billion years or so. But yes, if the Black Sea filled up like Ryan & Pittman postulate, the folks there would have thought "the whole world's drowning!"

I'm now about 134 pages in and he is now examining how Ryan and Pitman came to a dichotomy-- namely, how and why, if the Flood was localized in the Anatolian region, why such a myth has propagated throughout many nations and geographical locations, as far East as Greece and as far West as India. Their theory entails a "Diaspora" of sorts where the survivors fled the immediate area and branched out. With the dispersion comes along the story of the great Flood that slowly synthesizes in to local legends. A consensus has not been reached, but according to varying archaeological opinion, some place the direct progeny of the inhabitants of Catal Huyuk to the Ubaidans, who are alleged to predate Sumerians and Akkadians as the first proto-semites. Others place an emphasis on the Vincas, located in the Baltic/Slavic states because of the remarkable similarities noted on the Tartaria Tablets. Some believe in a conglomeration.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19819
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 37 of 188 (384018)
02-09-2007 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by sidelined
02-09-2007 5:54 PM


Re: This is old.
and in a heavy rain or fog it is easy to lose sight of the "horizon" ... coupled with the "bizarre" behavior of animals to congregate at high points as an area floods - carnivore with herbivore - and then pile everything onto a makeshift raft that drifts for several days before bumping into shore ...

... but I still want to know if there are signs of human habitation down there: so far results = 0.


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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19819
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 38 of 188 (384021)
02-09-2007 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Lithodid-Man
02-09-2007 12:35 PM


Re: A few other points...
I was pointing it out as a potential error on the part of the author if he claimed Mytilus were freshwater.

Given the lazy attention to detail noted above, it is likely he thought freshwater mussel, ... , mussel= Mytilus, ... , therefore ...

Again this presents an opportunity to test certain flood "hypothesis" -- such as all water before the "flood" was freshwater ... this would mean that all freshwater mussels are related to a common pre-flood freshwater mussel ...


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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 188 (384032)
02-09-2007 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by RAZD
02-09-2007 7:23 PM


Re: This is old.
Ballard claims there's evidence of human habitation such as structural remains 300' below shore level of the Black Sea.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 40 of 188 (384044)
02-09-2007 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jazzns
02-08-2007 4:54 PM


Why do you gear it just toward athesits and theists and yet segregate the idea of no global flood to the atheists. I certainly am not an atheist and I also know there was no global flood.

My apologies. "Theists" was an inappropriate term. I should have said, "Biblicists" or something to that affect.

A good treatment of this is also given in the book called Noah's Flood by Ryan and Pittman.

Yeah, Wilson examines much of their work in the book.

We learned about catastrophic flooding in geology 101 in college. I doubt that this is much a shocker to anyone who is mildly educated in geosciences. I doubt you could find a single statement from a modern geologist that would ever state that catastrophic flooding, especially in this circumstances of a natural dam, has not happened.

Fair enough.

It most certainly was not a global flood. We are pretty sure there is not enough water in the Mediterranean to flood the world. There was enough to fill up the Black Sea basin pretty quick though.

Speaking from a religious point-of-view, I don't know if Moses meant "the whole world" as in the totality of earth or if he meant "the whole world" as in, the world that humans thought to be the whole the world, which was pretty much contained within the Old World. But I wonder what physical evidence for such a massive Flood would look like, being that there were no real outward geologic appearances that would have alluded to anyone that the Black Sea was so massively inundated. In fact, the only reason Pitman and Ryan were out there to begin with was because Genesis and the Epic either affirmed the location or made allusions to it. If they hadn't specifically looked at the bottom of the sea floor with submersibles with a tenacious fervor, it might still not be known.

Secondly, I can't help but wonder why there are fossilized mollusks on top of virtually every mountain, even extremely tall mountains that are nowhere near any bodies of water. I've heard a lot of theories on that about plate shifts and subduction, but how is it that virtually ever single mountain was once near water in the distant past? That seems highly implausible to me.

I also wonder about specific fossil beds, such as the Love Bone Fossil Bed where a multitude of species are found in what makes a natural basin, as if a huge runoff had swept many species in to one gigantic grave.

We know that the flood was probably pretty traumatic to the inhabitants. Enough to cause them to create lore about it.

Possibly. But where then do the stories about Noah, Uta-Napishti, Ziusudra, etc come from?

quote:
And of that which is mentioned, it is routinely dumbed down in an apparent view of it being inconsequential.

You mean just like any other scientific finding that makes it to popular press?

I'm speaking more about respected journals. But then again, I don't have a subscription to Paleontology.

If anyone is denying the importance of this event it is YEC's. A YEC will tell you that this could not be the flood of the Noah myth because it was not global and did not kill everyone else on earth other than Noah and his family just like the Bible says.

You're probably right about that. I don't see why even a large but localized flood presents a problem for them. If Moses believed that the whole earth was flooded, it very could mean that it was the part of the earth that he and all his contemporaries knew about. The story about Genesis, although I believe it was certainly inspired by God, was passed down through the Mishnah. It wouldn't affect a literal interpretation of the Bible.

In fact, it probably didn't kill more than a small percentage of the people directly affected by it and most of them probably died from secondary effects from forced relocation. Certainly not drowning like the Bible says.

Well, I believe it certainly was possible. What I don't believe is that there is any scientific rigor to back that up. There are a few clues, mainly the one's I listed speaking strictly from a naturalistic point of view. Aside from that, its all conjecture just like most things.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2185
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 41 of 188 (384055)
02-09-2007 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Hyroglyphx
02-09-2007 8:33 PM


Geology 101
NJ writes:

Secondly, I can't help but wonder why there are fossilized mollusks on top of virtually every mountain, even extremely tall mountains that are nowhere near any bodies of water. I've heard a lot of theories on that about plate shifts and subduction, but how is it that virtually ever single mountain was once near water in the distant past? That seems highly implausible to me.

Geology is the study of pressure and time. If you can't understand the timescales involved, you will never be able to understand geology. Virtually every vertical slice of ground today has significant layers that were underwater at sometime in the past. Different times however, so don't start that 6000 year old earth business based upon ignorance of evidence.

Edited by anglagard, : clarity


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5381
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 42 of 188 (384057)
02-09-2007 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Hyroglyphx
02-09-2007 8:33 PM


I can't help but wonder why there are fossilized mollusks on top of virtually every mountain, even extremely tall mountains that are nowhere near any bodies of water.

It's worth mention that the top of Mt Everest is indeed partly made up of calcium carbonate that was laid down under the sea. But it's metamorphosed partway to marble: the limestone was buried several miles beneath other rocks at some point, and stayed there long enough to recrystallize due to that heat and pressure. Since then, India crashing into Asia has unburied it.

Not a fast process. Not compatible with a Flud timeline.


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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4025 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 43 of 188 (384059)
02-09-2007 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Hyroglyphx
02-09-2007 8:33 PM


Uplift
nj writes:

Secondly, I can't help but wonder why there are fossilized mollusks on top of virtually every mountain, even extremely tall mountains that are nowhere near any bodies of water. I've heard a lot of theories on that about plate shifts and subduction, but how is it that virtually ever single mountain was once near water in the distant past? That seems highly implausible to me.

In a word.... Uplift.

Check out the rock cycle. Just like the water cycle but a slightly different time cycle.

BTW this is a very vexing problem for the "global flood" theory.

Mollusks are mobility challenged.

A global flood provides *no* explanation for the presence of marine fossils on mountain tops and benches like the North Rim of the Grand Canyon.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19819
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 44 of 188 (384064)
02-09-2007 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Buzsaw
02-09-2007 8:07 PM


Re: This is old.
actually no, not yet anyway, maybe:

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/2000/12.html

quote:
Since the report of the discovery of the habitation site (site 82) and its initial reporting the following has happened: We were granted permission from the Turkish authorities to move to a further stage of investigation—sampling and actual testing of some of our observations. Thus, when we went in and investigated the site further, we found that suggested mud slabs were actually stone, and that the suggested stone artifacts were actually wood, etc. We now have samples from the site which we collected. (They are in my refrigerator at the moment.) I am sending them for scientific analysis.

Our closer look at the wooden artifacts confirms our first impression that they are the result of shaping by humans. They have smooth, symmetrical shapes and unmistakable traces of drilling to produce the holes visible on the videos. We don’t know a lot about ancient wooden tools since wood is rarely preserved in any form, but we can compare these objects with the tools for woodworking that have been found at sites on land, and with wooden objects produced by craftsmen in today’s traditional societies.


But the jury is still out -- this is a working hypothesis until more data is in (including carbon dating of the wood).

We'll have to wait for the next installment ... except they seem to have stopped in 2000. My guess is that they need to make another expedition, and given a certain altering of the world of politics in 2001 ....


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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1708 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 45 of 188 (384092)
02-10-2007 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by iceage
02-09-2007 9:24 PM


Re: Uplift R Us
iceage:

In a word.... Uplift.

I like that word.

Without it, the real estate market in Taiwan would be pretty flat.

;)


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