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Author Topic:   The Flood
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 21 of 188 (383703)
02-08-2007 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
02-08-2007 1:57 PM


This is old.
National Geographic - 404
This is a local flood caused by the rising sea level breaching into what was a low lying freshwater lake.
May well be the origin for the myth of a large flood, but there are problems: for one the water did not go back down, rather that area has stayed flooded.
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 26 of 188 (383781)
02-09-2007 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Lithodid-Man
02-09-2007 2:58 AM


Re: A few other points...
Freshwater shells were found by Bob Ballard and crew:
National Geographic - 404
quote:
Ballard’s 1999 expedition revealed an ancient shoreline. Also found were shells from freshwater and saltwater mollusk species. Their radiocarbon dates support the theory of a freshwater lake inundated by the Black Sea some 7,000 years ago.
and
National Geographic - 404
quote:
"Nine distinct species of mollusks were identified by Gary Rosenberg of the Academy of Natural Sciences, Philadelphia. Seven of the species are saltwater mollusks; the other two are extinct freshwater mollusks, similar to species found today in the freshwater Caspian Sea."
Samples of each shell species were radiocarbon”dated by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution. It found that the saltwater species ranged in age from 2,800 to 6,820 years. The freshwater species ranged from 7,460 to 15,500 years. These tests support the theory that the Black Sea was a freshwater lake until it was flooded by the Mediterranean Sea about 7,000 years ago. The tests suggest the inundation of the Black Sea occurred between 6,820 and 7,460 years ago.
Don't be so quick to rule out freshwater mussels.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 27 of 188 (383783)
02-09-2007 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Hyroglyphx
02-08-2007 6:02 PM


Re: Discovery channrl - is that channeling an url?
I saw a documentary on this theory too, except that, it appeared to be geared towards "debunking" the Genesis version in favor of a bizarre interpretation of the Epic of Gilgamesh.
The idea advanced by certain creationists is that during the antediluvian era that was not nearly as much water as there is today. They hypothesize over that because certain underwater regions appear to be like canyons formed by rushing water. And how they account for the much higher volume of water is that they believe, based on the Bible, that there was a "firmament" that acted as a vapor canopy. They have seemed to abandon this theory, however. The second is that huge resevoirs of water were underground, according to parts of the Bible and the Book of Jasher. The claim is that the water was initially fresh, however, over time salt deposits accumulate over time as rivers carry these deposits in to the sea all the time.
Which is bizarre? According to who? LOL. "Channeling" something ...
Actually, what we have here is a low area that was inundated by rising sea-water, which then flooded over where a fresh-water lake had been (at the - gosh - low point of the low area?).
This is a perfect way to test creationist theory: what evidence should we find of human habited areas flooded by a large influx of water? Turbulence, sedimentation layers, all the rest.
Time for creationists to get out and do some science like they've never done before ... they can actually test some of their concepts eh?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : toyp

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 37 of 188 (384018)
02-09-2007 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by sidelined
02-09-2007 5:54 PM


Re: This is old.
and in a heavy rain or fog it is easy to lose sight of the "horizon" ... coupled with the "bizarre" behavior of animals to congregate at high points as an area floods - carnivore with herbivore - and then pile everything onto a makeshift raft that drifts for several days before bumping into shore ...
... but I still want to know if there are signs of human habitation down there: so far results = 0.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 38 of 188 (384021)
02-09-2007 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Lithodid-Man
02-09-2007 12:35 PM


Re: A few other points...
I was pointing it out as a potential error on the part of the author if he claimed Mytilus were freshwater.
Given the lazy attention to detail noted above, it is likely he thought freshwater mussel, ... , mussel= Mytilus, ... , therefore ...
Again this presents an opportunity to test certain flood "hypothesis" -- such as all water before the "flood" was freshwater ... this would mean that all freshwater mussels are related to a common pre-flood freshwater mussel ...

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 44 of 188 (384064)
02-09-2007 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Buzsaw
02-09-2007 8:07 PM


Re: This is old.
actually no, not yet anyway, maybe:
National Geographic - 404
quote:
Since the report of the discovery of the habitation site (site 82) and its initial reporting the following has happened: We were granted permission from the Turkish authorities to move to a further stage of investigation”sampling and actual testing of some of our observations. Thus, when we went in and investigated the site further, we found that suggested mud slabs were actually stone, and that the suggested stone artifacts were actually wood, etc. We now have samples from the site which we collected. (They are in my refrigerator at the moment.) I am sending them for scientific analysis.
Our closer look at the wooden artifacts confirms our first impression that they are the result of shaping by humans. They have smooth, symmetrical shapes and unmistakable traces of drilling to produce the holes visible on the videos. We don’t know a lot about ancient wooden tools since wood is rarely preserved in any form, but we can compare these objects with the tools for woodworking that have been found at sites on land, and with wooden objects produced by craftsmen in today’s traditional societies.
But the jury is still out -- this is a working hypothesis until more data is in (including carbon dating of the wood).
We'll have to wait for the next installment ... except they seem to have stopped in 2000. My guess is that they need to make another expedition, and given a certain altering of the world of politics in 2001 ....

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 90 of 188 (384760)
02-12-2007 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Buzsaw
02-12-2007 6:52 PM


Re: Genesis Flood Evidence
All I'm saying is that any evidence, regardless of quantity which lends support to Biblical flood is evidence.
Evidence for a concept is not sufficient to render it credible when there is evidence that refutes it that is not addressed.
There is evidence that the sun orbits the earth - you can see it every day. This is not sufficient to render a geocentric model of the solar system and universe credible, because there is evidence that refutes it.
No amount of evidence for a geocentric earth will make it a valid concept without addressing the evidence that refutes this concept.
No amount of evidence for a biblical flood will make it a valid concept without addressing the evidence that refutes this concept.
Ignoring the evidence that refutes a position is not faith, nor it is a matter of a "different interpretation" - it is a matter of denial of evidence that refutes the concept:
de·lu·sion -noun
1. an act or instance of deluding.
2. the state of being deluded.
3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.
The question is not whether delusion is involved, but what level of delusion is involved.
By the same token that you folks are chiding me, science has yet to prove that the amount of water to do the Black Sea thing did not affect the whole planet.
There is no evidence of a contemporaneous flood of all parts at one point in time. This gets into dating arguments which can be addressed elsewhere (Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Version 1 No 3 (formerly Part III) is a place to start). This also deals with denial of evidence that refutes a young earth model.
Conspiracy theories on why Ballard has not pursued further research are inconsequential when it would be possible for ICR or some other corporate creationist propaganda site to fund some real research (for once).
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 106 of 188 (384831)
02-13-2007 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by obvious Child
02-13-2007 2:30 AM


Re: Nothing Empirical
You'd think they would get the picture after corollating fossils of huge insects with massive amounts of oxygen in ice cores from the same time period. {sarcasm}I wonder if atmosphere plays a role in what organisms are around!{/sarcasm} Geez...
Careful with what you mean by massive. There is evidence that oxygen was more abundant during the age of the dinosaurs. Mind you this means going back at least 65 million years to get there ... and the difference is percents not factors.
Edited by RAZD, : ubb b da code
Edited by RAZD, : pyto

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 Message 116 by obvious Child, posted 02-14-2007 1:47 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 107 of 188 (384832)
02-13-2007 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Buzsaw
02-12-2007 11:14 PM


Re: Genesis Flood Evidence
That can work both ways Razd.
Of course it can work both ways. That is why the perceptions of reality become an issue. How do you validate positions? With objective verifiable evidence or hope-filled belief?
When there is a preponderance of objective verifiable evidence on one side and a preponderance of hope-filled belief on the other -- such as for a sun-centered solar system versus earth centered; such as for an old earth versus a young one -- then it is NOT the side with objective verifiable evidence that is in denial\delusion but the one with hope-filled belief. Particularly when the objective verifiable evidence contradicts the hope-filled belief.
Now if you had some evidence, something other than say:
Message 93
Not if it was created intact in such a manner that the conditions were just right for it to remain there until the flood when some change occured to change it. As I said before, the atmosphere was likely much more expansive and different than what is observed today.
Message 94
I, Dr Baumgardner and others have for a long time argued that if there were a different pre-Biblical flood atmosphere carbon and nitrogen properties in the atmosphere and in all preflood fossils et al would not be the same as post flood rendering Carbon dating inaccurate.
This is hope-filled belief, wishful thinking, without a shred of evidence that it COULD be true except by magic.
We have evidence from actual annual layers that correlate with climate change for the last 200,000 years by several different systems and not one of them shows a significant change in climate. These systems verify carbon dating and don't rely on it. See Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 for what I am talking about (new topic not yet promoted, you'll have to respond to Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Version 1 No 3 (formerly Part III), the older version with much of the same information, just not as up to date with the new data.
Bottom line, climate has been fairly much the same for the duration of these records, they are annual and the earth is old. Oh, and there was no flood in all that time either.
Denial of this evidence is not an alternative explanation, it is delusion.
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 158 of 188 (385445)
02-15-2007 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by obvious Child
02-14-2007 1:47 AM


Re: Nothing Empirical
As I recall several eras before the Dinosaurs had a % of oxygen far higher then it is today, allowing huge arthropods to evolve. Dragonflys with 12 feet wingspans, spiders the size of dinner plates...
From wikipedia:
quote:
List of prehistoric insects - Wikipedia
The differences between modern and prehistoric varieties can be essential, and, like many other creatures of prehistory, the latter tended to be much larger than their contemporary equivalents. This size difference is thought to be due to higher atmospheric oxygen levels (allowing diffusion through spiracles over greater distances) and higher temperatures (enhancing metabolism).
quote:
Meganeura - Wikipedia
Meganeura monyi was a prehistoric insect of the Carboniferous period (300 million years ago), resembling and related to the present-day dragonfly. With a wingspan of more than 75 cm (2 feet) wide, it was the largest known flying insect species to ever appear on earth (the Permian Meganeuropsis permiana being another contender). It was predatory, feeding on small amphibians and other insects.
Controversy has prevailed as to how insects of the Carboniferous period were able to grow so large. The way oxygen is diffused through the insect's body via its tracheal breathing system puts an upper limit on body size, which prehistoric insects seem to have well exceeded. It was originally proposed (Harlé & Harlé, 1911) that Meganeura was only able to fly because the atmosphere at that time contained more oxygen than the present 20 percent. This theory was dismissed by fellow scientists, but has found approval more recently through further study into the relationship between gigantism and oxygen availability (Chapelle & Peck, Nature, 1999). If this theory is correct, these insect giants would have been perilously susceptible to falling oxygen levels and certainly could not survive in our modern atmosphere.
Two feet is not twelve ... and compares to the largest today:
quote:
Largest organisms - Wikipedia
Dragonflies (Odonata). The largest living species of dragonfly is Megaloprepus caeruleata, attaining a size of as much as 19 cm (7.5 in) across the wings and a body length of over 12 cm (4.7 in).
They don't list either the body length for Meganeura monyi nor the body weight for Megaloprepus caeruleata, so comparisons of anything but the wings is not possible here, and that is not valid for body size.
quote:
http://uwnews.washington.edu/ni/article.asp?articleID=27608
Vertebrate creatures first began moving from the world's oceans to land about 415 million years ago, then all but disappeared by 360 million years ago. The fossil record contains few examples of animals with backbones for the next 15 million years, and then suddenly vertebrates show up again, this time for good.
Now a team of scientists led by University of Washington paleontologist Peter Ward has found a similar gap during the same period among non-marine arthropods, largely insects and spiders, and they believe a precipitous drop in the oxygen content of Earth's atmosphere is responsible.
He notes that atmospheric oxygen rose sharply at the end of the Silurian period about 415 million years ago, to reach a level of about 22 percent of the atmosphere, similar to today's oxygen content. But 55 million years later, atmospheric oxygen levels sank to 10 percent to 13 percent. The level remained low for 30 million years -- during which Romer's Gap occurred -- then shot up again, and vertebrates and arthropods again began moving from the sea to land.
The paper also is part of Ward's new book, "Out of Thin Air: Dinosaurs, Birds and Earth's Ancient Atmosphere," published this month by Joseph Henry Press. In the book, Ward argues that dinosaurs became the monsters that ruled the Earth for more than 60 million years -- and survived mass extinctions that destroyed many other species -- because they developed respiratory systems far more efficient than other terrestrial creatures.
Dinosaurs first appeared in the last part of the Triassic period, about 230 million years ago. That was during one of the lowest ebbs of atmospheric oxygen content of the last 500 million years, but he speculates that it took some time, until oxygen levels rose appreciably, before dinosaurs grew to their familiar gargantuan sizes.
"Dinosaurs thrived and nothing else did. There's an explanation for that, and it is that the air sac breathing system in dinosaurs and their descendants, modern birds, is more efficient than systems used by other organisms," Ward said.
The fact is that oxygen was almost non-existent early in the course of life on earth (until released by microbes), then it reached several high points, one roughly in the carboniferous period and another during the age of dinosaurs, and is lower now - with several oscillations in between.
Multiple highs and lows are not explained by one (1) event.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by obvious Child, posted 02-14-2007 1:47 AM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 164 of 188 (385465)
02-15-2007 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Buzsaw
02-15-2007 6:22 PM


oxygen in the early earth environments
Should have said atmospheric oxygen. It was tied up in oxides, like the rocks today. The evidence is in the sedimentary layers of red iron that were not fully oxidized.
This was before aerobic bacteria evolved from anaerobic ones: the anaerobic ones released the oxygen as by-products of their metabolism - CO2 and CH4 (methane) (like some anaerobic ones today) - and plants then evolved to use the CO2 and release O2.
http://gsa.confex.com/...1ESP/finalprogram/abstract_7607.htm
http://gsa.confex.com/...1ESP/finalprogram/abstract_6525.htm
http://gsa.confex.com/...1ESP/finalprogram/abstract_7978.htm
It took a while for the atmospheric Oxygen to build up enough to make a difference.
This is before any multicellular life existed.
Also see Timeline of the evolutionary history of life - Wikipedia
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : added atmospheric to oxygen at end

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 184 of 188 (385814)
02-17-2007 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by johnfolton
02-17-2007 5:18 AM


Re: Shear Waves
Its kind of funny there is such a lack of evidence supporting an old earth and sometimes feel like I'm the spider and the evolutionists the fly.
Which, of course, was why you could never get past the Lake Suigetsu varves to deal with the rest of the data on the age of the earth ... you kept tying yourself up thinking you had a fly?
Perhaps a troll is someone that simply outgrows the debate and it truely is futile for both the spider and the fly.
Or is just someone who never really fully engages the evidence, but flirts around it: more like a moth to a candle, eh? (Can't get too close now, might get burned).
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 187 of 188 (385929)
02-18-2007 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by obvious Child
02-17-2007 7:18 PM


Re: Shear lunacy?
He's smart enough to know that he cannot survive a substance over style debate.
And deluded enough to think he can ignore it and thus make the big pink elephant in the room go away?
Of course I think all flood proponents are delusional .... (ducks)
LOL

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