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Author Topic:   The Biblical God Incompatible With Big Bang.
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 136 of 149 (381631)
02-01-2007 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by kuresu
01-26-2007 9:48 PM


Re: the system of heavens
I just wanted you to know that I retract my insults leveled against you. I have editted my response to you...
http://EvC Forum: The Biblical God Incompatible With Big Bang. -->EvC Forum: The Biblical God Incompatible With Big Bang.
I get a bit worked up if I am not careful to deny myself continually. It is the daily sacrifice of cross carrying. I am still not very good at it. It takes time to change a beast into a civil citizen.
Rob

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 149 (381725)
02-01-2007 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Archer Opteryx
01-30-2007 11:34 AM


Re: headquarters?
AO writes:
How can God create the universe from a spot in the universe?
Do you know how old the universe's energy is as per 1LTD? According to this law of science it had no beginning and it will never end. The Biblical universe as per description of the creator and as per 1LTD is as old as energy, i.e. had no beginning and will have no end. I can no more comprehend how God has been creating, managing and destroying forever than science can comprehend the significance of 1LTD with all it's implications regarding the singularity. Science is stopped dead at the singularity having not a clue as to where it originated. So welcome to the club of finite human CDS (comprehension deficit syndrome).
Actually by definition the universe being all that exists is as eternal as God in that God (Jehovah) meaning "the existing one" having eternally existed has always been the central figure in the universe.
You raise a good point in that I should make my position clear that in his eternal universe God has forever been creating, destroying and managing things in the universe for his purpose and pleasure.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 149 (384047)
02-09-2007 8:43 PM


Jehovah Now, Then And Forever IN The Universe.
What do our Biblical theist BBists who are suggesting that God may be existing outside of the universe, which includes the t=0 think about this verse in Psalms? (Capped embolding mine) I do a daily Bible reading and came across this yesterday in that exercise.
Psalm 103:19 (American Standard Version)
American Standard Version (ASV)
"Jehovah hath established his throne IN THE HEAVENS; And his kingdom ruleth over all."

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 02-09-2007 8:49 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 142 by anastasia, posted 02-09-2007 11:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 143 by Omnivorous, posted 02-10-2007 12:49 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 146 by cavediver, posted 02-10-2007 11:36 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 139 of 149 (384050)
02-09-2007 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Buzsaw
02-09-2007 8:43 PM


Re: Jehovah Now, Then And Forever IN The Universe.
LOL
It is a poem Buz. The clue might be that it is ...
A Psalm.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 149 (384052)
02-09-2007 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
02-09-2007 8:49 PM


Re: Jehovah Now, Then And Forever IN The Universe.
So?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 02-09-2007 8:49 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 141 of 149 (384053)
02-09-2007 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Buzsaw
02-09-2007 8:57 PM


Re: Jehovah Now, Then And Forever IN The Universe.
So?
It is simply poetic, not literal.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 142 of 149 (384078)
02-09-2007 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Buzsaw
02-09-2007 8:43 PM


Re: Jehovah Now, Then And Forever IN The Universe.
Buz, I am just curious. In your OP you were concerned that there was no Outside of the universe for God to exist in.
Buzsaw writes:
5. Problem #1: No outside of means no space for God to exist in before the alleged BB.
This verse from Psalms sounds like God is IN the universe;
"Jehovah hath established his throne IN THE HEAVENS; And his kingdom ruleth over all."
Did God move? Are you changing your position, or am I misunderstanding?
I think you can combine the two; God exists, He spoke, BB happened spreading out the universe all around Him so that He was effectively 'in' the universe, and 'not in' before the universe. Honestly, your imagination is the limit and probably nothing like what really is anyway. There is no reason to fret.

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 143 of 149 (384083)
02-10-2007 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Buzsaw
02-09-2007 8:43 PM


Re: Jehovah Now, Then And Forever IN The Universe.
Sounds like God in a cage, Buz.
I'm no believer, but if I were, my conception of God would be grander than the limits of human imagination.
Let's apply some patented creationist logic: If the universe is God's creation, then He must be greater than the universe, no?
Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 144 of 149 (384088)
02-10-2007 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Buzsaw
02-01-2007 8:16 PM


you put your material God IN, you put your transcendent God OUT...
anastasia > Buz:
Honestly, your imagination is the limit and probably nothing like what really is anyway. There is no reason to fret.
Good point. To use a preposition at all is to introduce imagination. We talk about a nonspatial reality as if it occupied space. Literally speaking, any debate about whether a noncorporeal being is 'above' or among' or 'around' or 'in' us is nonsense.
It's like talking about a time 'before' time. It's 'bollocks.'
Imagination is what interests me now, though.
Buz - Several contributors have used the word noncorporeal of God. It's been part of Christian theology for centuries. That's why people take it as a given when talking to you. But I wonder how you understand it or if you even accept it. What does this idea mean to you? Is it one you would use of your God?
__

Archer
All species are transitional.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 145 of 149 (384161)
02-10-2007 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Archer Opteryx
02-10-2007 1:05 AM


Re: you put your material God IN, you put your transcendent God OUT...
Archer Opterix writes:
Several contributors have used the word noncorporeal of God. It's been part of Christian theology for centuries.
I always thought the point of the trinity doctrine was that God could be "more than one thing": Jesus the material, God the transcendent.
Jesus here, God everywhere - at the same "time".

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 146 of 149 (384168)
02-10-2007 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Buzsaw
02-09-2007 8:43 PM


Re: Jehovah Now, Then And Forever IN The Universe.
Jehovah hath established his throne IN THE HEAVENS; And his kingdom ruleth over all
I'll make the same point again. If this refers to the actual heavens, i.e. the Universe, we must be able to approach this throne, or at least the vicinity of it. What would we see? Does it orbit a star? Or is it free floating in a void somewhere? How big is it? What happens when we send a fleet of ships to investigate?

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 147 of 149 (384197)
02-10-2007 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by cavediver
02-10-2007 11:36 AM


Re: Jehovah Now, Then And Forever IN The Universe.
cavediver writes:
I'll make the same point again. If this refers to the actual heavens, i.e. the Universe, we must be able to approach this throne, or at least the vicinity of it. What would we see? Does it orbit a star? Or is it free floating in a void somewhere? How big is it? What happens when we send a fleet of ships to investigate?
There can even be many, many ways in which Jehovah 'makes His throne in the Heavens'.
It may be a simple means of describing His transcendence; Gods have always been thought to dwell in high places, and less benevolent gods to dwell in lower places, either in our world or a world set apart.
A non-corporeal being wouldn't need to be confined to a mountain.
He would not even need to be confined to a throne, but His throne could consist of the entire heavens, or just a place of emanation from where all of creation spread out around him. If God were immanent in all of creation invisibly, His throne or point of 'origin' would not be detectable, and since god could exist equally everywhere in a non-corporeal existance, his 'throne' could not be said to exist anymore in one place than in another.
This is not a good description of the Xian God, who must always be thought of as 'seperate' from His creation...but 'seperate' comes in so many forms. He could exist 'in' the universe, but 'above' the universe in His substance, compared to something more pantheistic where He is of the same substance as the universe.
Anyway, yes, we can see what Buz has to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by cavediver, posted 02-10-2007 11:36 AM cavediver has replied

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 148 of 149 (384202)
02-10-2007 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by anastasia
02-10-2007 2:10 PM


Re: Jehovah Now, Then And Forever IN The Universe.
Exactly

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 149 of 149 (384216)
02-10-2007 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Archer Opteryx
02-10-2007 1:05 AM


Re: you put your material God IN, you put your transcendent God OUT...
Archer Opterix writes:
Good point. To use a preposition at all is to introduce imagination. We talk about a nonspatial reality as if it occupied space. Literally speaking, any debate about whether a noncorporeal being is 'above' or among' or 'around' or 'in' us is nonsense.
Nonsense, maybe, but just the sort of nonsense which the great world philosophies use as divisions. In some sense, God in Christianity is 'above' around' 'in' 'amoung' and even 'with' us, but not in the same sense that He might be in pantheism, deism or panentheism. On the one hand it is extremely impossible to 'know' which is which, to comparatively study the options...as you often come across terms like 'Holy Spirit' which are common in only one philosophy, and yet bridge some of the gaps between a completely transcendent god idea, to a completely immanent god idea. I believe the idea in christian theology is that God is transcendent in substance, the Spirit can be 'in' us with a sort of hypostatic union, and only with Jesus is God actually the 'substance'. He is not 'god and man' but God become man.
Buz - Several contributors have used the word noncorporeal of God. It's been part of Christian theology for centuries. That's why people take it as a given when talking to you. But I wonder how you understand it or if you even accept it. What does this idea mean to you? Is it one you would use of your God?
I was wondering last night about this 'non-corporeal God'. Not a very satisfying thought, to get to heaven and see No One. It certainly would seem that Jesus would steal the spotlight away from this No One. If someone was not Christian and saw No One and Jesus, they might think they were in the wrong place. Of course, my own imagination is faulty, being human and all, but I did have some thoughts about 'non-corporeal'.
In genesis, we are made in the 'image and likeness of God', according to arach, the word used to say this in Hebrew has qualities of being both spiritual and physical. But of course, the idea of God being fleshly is 'heresy' but he could have some sort of Supreme Manifestation. The non-corporeal idea could have been a deterent from the human tendency to 'picture' God, to break Him down into attributes, or to combine His attributes in any one form. You do see pictures of gods having many atrributes at once, like the one you provided, or many manifestations of different attributes. The thought may have been to stop 'picturing' God, and to truly allow Him to be transcendent, without name, without form, etc. His attributes could become words, like omni-science, omni-potence, and omni-presence. These words might frustrate our ability to 'know' God, hence Jesus, condescension, and a 'personal' God.
Essentially, though these words are designed to DEFY our imagination, they end up being defied by our imagination. I think I am paraphrasing a signature I have seen around here. Anyway, we have slowly begun building of a new Valhalla in the heavens, complete with streets, thrones, and gates. Honestly, I think the idea was NOT to have an idea.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

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