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Author Topic:   Did Religion Give Birth to Morals?
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 61 of 68 (384289)
02-10-2007 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Open MInd
02-10-2007 7:41 PM


Re: The Origin of Morals.
You said that Hitler was a Christian. This does not answer my question. The question was, was Hitler a moral person? Was the entire Germany acting with morals?

Morality depends entirely on the era, community and milieu. The answer to your question is of course, "Yes and No", depending on the perspective of the person making the judgment. From within a moral framework where the Jew was seen as "The Killer of Christ" Hitler was certainly acting within a moral position. And while the Final Solution was certainly more drastic than others that had been tried by many nations, it was patterned on the policy and practices as well as successes of the US in dealing with our own undesirables, the Native Americans.

In that case religion, specifically Christianity, gave birth to a morality that the rest of the world found horrific.

On a side note, I have another question. Why should "I" not steal if I would not get caught? It is logical why a whole society should not go around stealing. However, I don't think you can give me one good reason why I should not steal something without the fear of getting caught.

Yeah, that old sophomoric conundrum comes up often.

Would you want someone to steal from you simply because they could get away with it?

As another aside, it is almost always the Christians who bring up that false dilemma. It appears to indicate that many if not most Christians' ethics are based solely on the fear of being caught and punished and it definitely is one of the reasons so many folk turn away from Christianity.

Why would one want to associate with any people who's civility is maintained only through fear and that seem to have no person code of morality?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Open MInd, posted 02-10-2007 7:41 PM Open MInd has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 68 (384291)
02-10-2007 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Open MInd
02-10-2007 7:57 PM


Re: The Origin of Morals.
You continue to claim that you are a very religious person. I challenge you on that claim. Do you believe in a supernatural being that created the world? You can't claim that your morals are not part of your religion because you don't even have a religion!

Silly Rabbit. LOL

I doubt that there is anyone at EvC who's religious beliefs have been explored in any greater depth than mine. Feel free to challenge away. Hell, everyone else does.

Also, I have never claimed that my morals are not part of my religion. Such an assertion from you is simply absurd.

What I have said is that it is not necessary to be part of any religion to be moral, and that morality is NOT simply a creation of some religion but rather a social contract that evolves over time.

But go ahead and challenge whether or not a am a very religious person. You might want to do a little research on the issue beforehand though.

Start with Message 1; Message 1; Message 1; this post; anudder post and if you need more, let me know.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Open MInd, posted 02-10-2007 7:57 PM Open MInd has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Open MInd, posted 02-10-2007 8:19 PM jar has responded
 Message 66 by anastasia, posted 02-10-2007 8:49 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 68 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2007 10:53 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 3773 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 63 of 68 (384294)
02-10-2007 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
02-10-2007 8:10 PM


Re: The Origin of Morals.
I would like to ask you one question, "why" did this supernatural being that you believe in create the world?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 02-10-2007 8:10 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by AdminAsgara, posted 02-10-2007 8:28 PM Open MInd has not yet responded
 Message 65 by jar, posted 02-10-2007 8:36 PM Open MInd has not yet responded

    
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 64 of 68 (384297)
02-10-2007 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Open MInd
02-10-2007 8:19 PM


Re: The Origin of Morals.
jar's personal morals, religion, beliefs, shoe size, sheet color, etc are NOT the topic of this thread. Please read the links that jar has already given you and if you still have questions open yet another "jar" thread or just ask him these personal questions in chat.

Edited by AdminAsgara, : No reason given.


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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by Open MInd, posted 02-10-2007 8:19 PM Open MInd has not yet responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30936
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 65 of 68 (384301)
    02-10-2007 8:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 63 by Open MInd
    02-10-2007 8:19 PM


    Re: The Origin of Morals.
    I would like to ask you one question, "why" did this supernatural being that you believe in create the world?

    I am clueless on that. Do you know what GOD had in mind? LOL


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by Open MInd, posted 02-10-2007 8:19 PM Open MInd has not yet responded

      
    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 4064 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 66 of 68 (384306)
    02-10-2007 8:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 62 by jar
    02-10-2007 8:10 PM


    Re: The Origin of Morals.
    jar writes:

    What I have said is that it is not necessary to be part of any religion to be moral, and that morality is NOT simply a creation of some religion but rather a social contract that evolves over time.

    I agree with this jar, although I am sure you know that I allow morality to be more than ONLY a social contract. I think you do as well, but yes, when you express one thing, people will jump on you and say; 'well, if your religion isn't about morality, what is it?'

    What I do want to say, in regards to the OP, is that morality could very quickly become religious.

    Men could trade something for something. Good for survival.
    Men could look at the sun, and say, I will sacrifice something to the sun in order to gain something physical. Not so good for survival. :) but religion is born.
    Then, I will sacrifice something to the sun in order to gain something invisible, like immortality.
    I will sacrifice something physical to something invisible (a god) in order to gain something invisible or physical.
    I will sacrifice something invisible to something invisible to gain something invisible.

    Things with obvious benefits, like trades, are not so much thought of as moral. They are simply intelligent choices. Things where the benefit is based on faith in the productivity of the action, are moral. The idea now is that sacrificing anything to something invisible is pointless without real productivity.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 62 by jar, posted 02-10-2007 8:10 PM jar has not yet responded

        
    crashfrog
    Inactive Member


    Message 67 of 68 (384863)
    02-13-2007 10:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 59 by Open MInd
    02-10-2007 7:41 PM


    Re: The Origin of Morals.
    Why should "I" not steal if I would not get caught?

    Well, most people in the same situation do steal, and then tell themselves it isn't stealing.

    What does that tell you?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 59 by Open MInd, posted 02-10-2007 7:41 PM Open MInd has not yet responded

      
    crashfrog
    Inactive Member


    Message 68 of 68 (384864)
    02-13-2007 10:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 62 by jar
    02-10-2007 8:10 PM


    Re: The Origin of Morals.
    I doubt that there is anyone at EvC who's religious beliefs have been explored in any greater depth than mine.

    lol! You're absolutely right, Jar. God only knows what you did to merit such intense scrutiny of what you believe. I don't know what it is about creationists that make them so perversely fascinated by your personal faith.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 62 by jar, posted 02-10-2007 8:10 PM jar has not yet responded

      
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