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Author Topic:   Religion is for men
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5971 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 49 of 77 (384734)
02-12-2007 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by crashfrog
02-12-2007 10:02 AM


Re: Eve the Leader
Well, folks, take it or leave it, the RCC has taught infallibly on this matter and does not consider itself in any way possessive of the right to change the requirements for ordination.
Has the church allowed a high place for women? Yes. Again, there are at least 3 female Doctors of the Church, countless mystics, visionaries, martyrs, queens, foundresses, missionaries, and even a military leader.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by crashfrog, posted 02-12-2007 10:02 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 02-12-2007 10:41 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 51 by nator, posted 02-13-2007 8:03 AM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5971 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 52 of 77 (384853)
02-13-2007 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by crashfrog
02-12-2007 10:41 PM


Re: Eve the Leader
Crashfrog writes:
Papal infallibility extends to claims of doctrine, not claims of fact
That is a messy way of saying it, but I know what you mean. The Pope can tell you he saw your mom, and be dead wrong.
A lot of people don't understand how papal infallibility works.
I see.
. It's not that the Pope isn't allowed to be wrong; it's that, as Christ's Vicar, he's entitled to write checks that Jesus Christ will cash, if you will.
It's really not that the Pope is allowed to be anything. The Pope can be wrong about science and movies, but again, not about doctrine and such.
Popes do not and will not toss out the ruling of past popes. The object is at all times to maintain tradition, and to publically define what has been held on faith.
As a side note, I did not say anything about papal infallibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 02-12-2007 10:41 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2007 10:20 AM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5971 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 54 of 77 (384857)
02-13-2007 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by nator
02-13-2007 8:03 AM


Re: Eve the Leader
nator writes:
At any rate, ana, your couple of justifications for how male-only leadership is somehow "normal" or "natural" have been pretty soundly debunked.
I never said anything remotely close to that. It wil always be easy to debunk things when you contort them. What I did say was that the male-only priesthood is Biblical and based on the actions of Jesus. It is taught infallibly, and no amount of speculation about who woulda coulda shoulda been anywhere, will change that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by nator, posted 02-13-2007 8:03 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by nator, posted 02-13-2007 1:05 PM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5971 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 55 of 77 (384861)
02-13-2007 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by crashfrog
02-13-2007 10:20 AM


Re: Eve the Leader
Crashfrog writes:
Well, maybe they say that, but anyone can look at the Church's history and see how that's not true. I mean, Benedict XVI has already reversed many papal edicts of John Paul II.
Bring 'em on for examination.
There's only one infallible figure in the Catholic Church, Ana. I shouldn't have to tell you who it is.
See below;
As a side note, I have to wonder why you're being so transparently dishonest. Is it your impression that the people you're talking with right now are idiots?
I do not have a dishonest bone in my body. I would like to know what makes you think I am being dishonest? If you can't prove that I am dishonest, I will have to complain.
Oh, and about the infallibility; I still never said anything about the Pope. I said, 'taught infallibly'. This phrase refers to the episcopal Magesterium of the Church, not the Pope. The Pope defines infallibly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2007 10:20 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2007 10:47 AM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5971 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 57 of 77 (384865)
02-13-2007 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by crashfrog
02-13-2007 10:47 AM


Re: Eve the Leader
Crashfrog writes:
Protestations of honesty are typical of those who act dishonestly. The honest have no need to proclaim it.
The honest have every need to be honest if they are accused of lying. I am hoping that you will be willing to learn something instead of calling people liars.
When you say something, and then say you didn't say that, that's behaving dishonestly. Maybe you're an honest person, or maybe not; regardless, that's how you're behaving.
Again, I never mentioned Papal infallibility.
Here's a clue; how do you think the Pope was ruled infallible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2007 10:47 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2007 11:02 AM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5971 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 59 of 77 (384867)
02-13-2007 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by crashfrog
02-13-2007 11:02 AM


Re: Eve the Leader
Crashfrog writes:
Lol! If you're going to insist that you didn't say what you clearly said, I don't know what kind of discussion is going to be possible with you.
I am going to insist, yes, that I did not mention Papal infallibility. Here is another clue for you; no Pope has spoken ex cathedra since 1950.
Wikipedia Papal Infallibility writes:
Statements by a pope that exercise papal infallibility are referred to as solemn papal definitions or ex cathedra teachings. These should not be confused with teachings that are infallible because of a solemn definition by an ecumenical council, or with teachings that are infallible in virtue of being taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium.
Infallibility of the Church - Wikipedia
The church has taught infallibly, not the Pope. You are of course welcome to question, but Catholics are not, as per Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.
Crashfrog writes:
So, in fact, it was papal infallibility you were talking about. Hence, dishonesty.
So, in fact, I was not speaking about Papal infallibility, and I was very honest in leaving an open end for questions about whether or not the popes would ever rule definitively.
I hope you enjoy your time here at EvC.
Thank you.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2007 11:02 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5971 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 62 of 77 (384941)
02-13-2007 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by nator
02-13-2007 1:05 PM


Re: Eve the Leader
nasty writes:
But I do believe that gender roles play a big part; men are seen as leaders.
That is what I said. Not;
nator writes:
I mean, didn't you mean to say that since you think men are naturally smarter they make better leaders?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by nator, posted 02-13-2007 1:05 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by nator, posted 02-13-2007 9:36 PM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5971 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 63 of 77 (384943)
02-13-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Greatest I am
02-13-2007 2:45 PM


Re: Woman power
GIA writes:
Having said this let me say that the percentage of such women is far lower that I think it should be.
things are as they should be with men leading and women following. Generally.
And they say women are fickle.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Greatest I am, posted 02-13-2007 2:45 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Greatest I am, posted 02-14-2007 9:02 AM anastasia has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5971 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 68 of 77 (385254)
02-14-2007 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by nator
02-13-2007 9:36 PM


Re: Eve the Leader
nator writes:
If you didn't mean to say that men aren't naturally smarter, what did you mean?
If you didn't mean to say that you weren't bothered by woman-hating attitudes, what did you mean?
Altogether it was a lousy way of saying;
Men may be better in certain areas, I am comfortable giving credit when it is due without getting up-tight and crying 'sexism', but in this issue I must
disagree with the blanket statement that 'Religion is for Men'
Going by history, we could conclude that painting is for men. Music, literature, science, sporting, philosophy and many other areas are dominated until recently by male contributions, although of course women were equal in patronage and appreciation. When you look through the ages, there are two areas where women DO stand out as important figures, and religion is one of them.
In fact, outside of the RCC priesthood, the leadership role of women in religion is progressing more at present than it is in some secular traditions. As mentioned, we have not yet had a female president, and other positions such as orchestral conductor, are rarely filled by women.
So, I would say Religion is not 'for men' but that certain functions have been overseen by men traditionally, which correspond to the roles given men in society.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by nator, posted 02-13-2007 9:36 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-19-2007 12:30 AM anastasia has not replied

  
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