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Author Topic:   The Flood
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 106 of 188 (384831)
02-13-2007 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by obvious Child
02-13-2007 2:30 AM


Re: Nothing Empirical
You'd think they would get the picture after corollating fossils of huge insects with massive amounts of oxygen in ice cores from the same time period. {sarcasm}I wonder if atmosphere plays a role in what organisms are around!{/sarcasm} Geez...
Careful with what you mean by massive. There is evidence that oxygen was more abundant during the age of the dinosaurs. Mind you this means going back at least 65 million years to get there ... and the difference is percents not factors.
Edited by RAZD, : ubb b da code
Edited by RAZD, : pyto

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by obvious Child, posted 02-13-2007 2:30 AM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by obvious Child, posted 02-14-2007 1:47 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 107 of 188 (384832)
02-13-2007 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Buzsaw
02-12-2007 11:14 PM


Re: Genesis Flood Evidence
That can work both ways Razd.
Of course it can work both ways. That is why the perceptions of reality become an issue. How do you validate positions? With objective verifiable evidence or hope-filled belief?
When there is a preponderance of objective verifiable evidence on one side and a preponderance of hope-filled belief on the other -- such as for a sun-centered solar system versus earth centered; such as for an old earth versus a young one -- then it is NOT the side with objective verifiable evidence that is in denial\delusion but the one with hope-filled belief. Particularly when the objective verifiable evidence contradicts the hope-filled belief.
Now if you had some evidence, something other than say:
Message 93
Not if it was created intact in such a manner that the conditions were just right for it to remain there until the flood when some change occured to change it. As I said before, the atmosphere was likely much more expansive and different than what is observed today.
Message 94
I, Dr Baumgardner and others have for a long time argued that if there were a different pre-Biblical flood atmosphere carbon and nitrogen properties in the atmosphere and in all preflood fossils et al would not be the same as post flood rendering Carbon dating inaccurate.
This is hope-filled belief, wishful thinking, without a shred of evidence that it COULD be true except by magic.
We have evidence from actual annual layers that correlate with climate change for the last 200,000 years by several different systems and not one of them shows a significant change in climate. These systems verify carbon dating and don't rely on it. See Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 for what I am talking about (new topic not yet promoted, you'll have to respond to Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Version 1 No 3 (formerly Part III), the older version with much of the same information, just not as up to date with the new data.
Bottom line, climate has been fairly much the same for the duration of these records, they are annual and the earth is old. Oh, and there was no flood in all that time either.
Denial of this evidence is not an alternative explanation, it is delusion.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 188 (384893)
02-13-2007 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by obvious Child
02-12-2007 4:25 PM


Re: Exegesis
You do realize relying upon geysers to produce 200% of the water on earth today results in a heat exchange high enough to kill virtually every living organism yes?
I'm saying that the Flood was "reported" by Moses to have been caused by torrential rain and underwater springs of some kind that burst forth. I said that in response to Anastasia. Then, I think, Anglagard, made a comment on how water can come rushing up without causation. In response to him, I said that "burst" seems to imply pressure, kind of like a geyser. I didn't say the Flood was caused by a geyser, I'm simply illustrating how water can momentarily defeat gravity. Secondly, the Flood was supposed to have killed every living thing, save the inhabitants of the Ark, so I'm not sure why you incredulously said, relying upon geysers to produce 200% of the water on earth today results in a heat exchange high enough to kill virtually every living organism yes? Whether it was hot water or cold water is inconsequential to the story. The fact relayed by Moses and other civilizations is that, yes, nothing not on board the vessel survived either way.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typo
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : edit to add

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by obvious Child, posted 02-12-2007 4:25 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by anglagard, posted 02-13-2007 6:38 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 117 by obvious Child, posted 02-14-2007 1:51 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 109 of 188 (384899)
02-13-2007 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by iceage
02-13-2007 2:15 AM


Re: Uplift R Us
Yep. Taiwan and the other islands of the Pacific Rim refute YEC beliefs as much as the Himalayas do.
A YEC has to say whether this or that geological feature existed before the Flood or after. They can't make it all happen in one year. But however they call it, they're toast.
Did Taiwan form before the Flood? If so, how does limestone and marble and jade form along with the upthrust in so short a (noncatastrophic) period of time? Was Taiwan formed during the Flood as part of the accelerated global mayhem? If so, it's a strange flood that buries mountains under water while raising mountains out of the water! Was Taiwan formed after the Flood? Then you face the same questions as before. And through it all you have to explain how all this upheaval took place even as people were living here. Did they grow their bananas on the ocean floor while it rose?
It can't be made to work. If YEC were true, the island just wouldn't be here.
One of our contributors on the 'REAL Flood Geology' thread said it well. The post described the world the way it would look if YEC beliefs were true. You wouldn't see any of the geological variety we see now. You'd have continental bedrock, a flood layer, and a thin layer of sediment that has put down in the years since. That's it. No one would be talking about tectonics because tectonic activity would be barely getting started. You wouldn't have the subduction zones and mountain ranges such activity generates.
I would more easily believe in the theory that God formed in situ to confuse and humble the wise.
I've wondered as well why more YECs don't do this. 'Appearance of age' is a far simpler hypothesis and it causes fewer problems logically.
I think they really did get the message that grand magic of this sort banishes an idea forever from public school science classes. They couldn't have that. They needed to make young-earth belief look like science. Along came Whitcomb & Morris with a new myth to fill the bill.
As a side note, either I have not been paying attention or the people of Taiwan have not done a good job promoting their country.
It's the latter. We've seen some discussion about this very thing in the papers lately. Foreigners are telling the Tourist Board that they need to let more people know about the natural features of the island. People around the world know about Taipei 101 but they don't know about Taroko Gorge or Jade Mountain or the beautiful east coast. They're telling the board that visitors will come from all over the world to hike these mountains if they are just made aware that the mountains are here.
Hope to someday visit.
I hope you can. Stay in touch.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 188 (384902)
02-13-2007 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by jar
02-12-2007 7:17 PM


Re: The Genesis Noahic Flood is a lie.
jar writes:
The fact is that sea shells are found IN, not ON, mountain tops. The shells are within the matrix. They could not have been washed into the very rock itself by any flood.
Anyone who promotes a World-wide flood is either lying, willfully ignorant or delusional.
You just LOVE to emply that nasty little word liar to your responses don't you? So don't be surprised when you are ignored.
Maybe sometime you'll learn to communicate in a less caustic manner. What you need is a Holy Spirit/Jesus transformation in your brain and soul.
Anyhow I argue that the matrix containing the sealife fossils up high is flood matrix raised up via flood tectonics. Furthermore, my dad leased a cattle ranch on the Shoshoni Indian Reservation for a number of years just outside of Ft. Washakie, Wyo. When local Indians were not interested, whites were allowed to lease on the reservation. The elevation of this ranch was over 6000' being in the foothills of the Rocky Mountain Wind River Range. I liked to go rock hunting on the ranch in the surrounding sagebrush land where I found numerous little fossils around an inch to two inches or so long laying on the top of the dirt without any sign of ever being embeded in matrix. I took some into the local geologist whom we knew at nearby Lander who informed me that these were petrified sea squib. The University of Missouri had a camp at a fossil site somewhere around the 10000' level not too far from there. I was never there however and don't know if these were also at that level. Likely some were.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 02-12-2007 7:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 02-13-2007 1:00 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 112 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-13-2007 1:21 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 113 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2007 1:32 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 115 by iceage, posted 02-13-2007 7:59 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 188 (384907)
02-13-2007 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Buzsaw
02-13-2007 12:50 PM


Re: The Genesis Noahic Flood is a lie.
Anyhow I argue that the matrix containing the sealife fossils up high is flood matrix raised up via flood tectonics.
You may argue that, but it is false, as false as 2 + 2 = 5.
The various shell and marine live deposits found on mountain tops ranges from fresh water species to salt water species interlaced with layers that were not under water. In addition there are layers of limestone and coral often thousands of feet thick.
I liked to go rock hunting on the ranch in the surrounding sagebrush land where I found numerous little fossils around an inch to two inches or so long laying on the top of the dirt without any sign of ever being embeded in matrix.
Yet another example of willful ignorance. What you found were examples that had been eroded OUT of the underlying material. In addition, all that area was once part of a great inland sea.
Sorry Buz but Noah's Flood is a lie and anyone who continues to assert it ever happened is either a liar, willfully ignorant or delusional.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Buzsaw, posted 02-13-2007 12:50 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 112 of 188 (384914)
02-13-2007 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Buzsaw
02-13-2007 12:50 PM


flood tectonics!
the matrix containing the sealife fossils up high is flood matrix raised up via flood tectonics.
'Flood tectonics'!
Yes--let's careen the India plate into the Eurasian plate so that it crashes and throws up the Himalayas in a single year--even as people are raising goats on the land--by pushing the continents around with a big garden hose.
Buz, the truth is that tectonic theory is a bigger problem for YECs than the theory of evolution ever was.
I wonder how long it will take for YECs as a group to realize it. Historically they are slow on the uptake.
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 113 of 188 (384918)
02-13-2007 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Buzsaw
02-13-2007 12:50 PM


Re: The Genesis Noahic Flood is a lie.
There is no "Flood Tectonics". How could it possibly work ? How do you explain the evidence that drift rates ahve stayed within an order of magnitude for all that period ? Why wouldn't speeding up the continents drastically produce noticable effects ? Do you actually have an argument or is it like your magic pre-Flood atmosphere - an unworkable excuse invented solely to escape the implications of the evidence ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Buzsaw, posted 02-13-2007 12:50 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 114 of 188 (384976)
02-13-2007 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Hyroglyphx
02-13-2007 12:34 PM


Telling the Truth
NJ writes:
Then, I think, Anglagard, made a comment on how water can come rushing up without causation.
Better think again, I would never say that any physical effect lacked a physical cause. It is not just due to my background in physical science but is even my religion.
I would definitely argue that the earth did not have layers of mantle, then ocean, then hard impermeable crust, then air, then water on top of the air as our YECs seem to be doing. This is in defiance of anything remotely resembling common sense as "light things float and heavy things sink."
In response to him, I said that "burst" seems to imply pressure, kind of like a geyser.
Do you know what happens to the geyser water after any "burst?" It falls back down to the ground, where much of it seeps back down to the geyser, gets reheated and pops back up in a cycle. Do you know why the water doesn't just keep going up?
Do you know that any physical force over time will establish equilibrium with its environment? A physical force like gravity, for instance. This is why you can't have rock over ocean and ocean over air or over the vacuum of space.
Why don't you just give up like Baumgardner and say..."and then a miracle occurred?"

Light things float and heavy things sink - any unbiased kindergardner
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God -Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-13-2007 12:34 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-15-2007 12:47 PM anglagard has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 115 of 188 (385001)
02-13-2007 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Buzsaw
02-13-2007 12:50 PM


Re: The Genesis Noahic Flood is a lie.
BuzSaw writes:
Holy Spirit/Jesus transformation in your brain and soul
Yep I think Jar needs to kidnapped and sent to the Jesus Boot Camp.
Buzsaw writes:
via flood tectonics
The interesting thing about tectonics is that there are some very convincing indelible marks that *strongly* suggests slooooooow movement. The best evidence of this is the record of magnetic reversals on the sea floor. As the sea floor spread the molten magma recorded the current earth polarity which changes periodically.

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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 116 of 188 (385072)
02-14-2007 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by RAZD
02-13-2007 9:09 AM


Re: Nothing Empirical
As I recall several eras before the Dinosaurs had a % of oxygen far higher then it is today, allowing huge arthropods to evolve. Dragonflys with 12 feet wingspans, spiders the size of dinner plates...[sarcasm]I wonder if oxygen content had anything to do with that![/sarcasm]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by RAZD, posted 02-13-2007 9:09 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2007 5:39 PM obvious Child has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 117 of 188 (385073)
02-14-2007 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Hyroglyphx
02-13-2007 12:34 PM


Re: Exegesis
quote:
so I'm not sure why you incredulously said, relying upon geysers to produce 200% of the water on earth today results in a heat exchange high enough to kill virtually every living organism yes? Whether it was hot water or cold water is inconsequential to the story. The fact relayed by Moses and other civilizations is that, yes, nothing not on board the vessel survived either way.
The only things that would survive would be thermophilic bacteria as some has been found in places that reach several hundred degrees.
Releasing superheated water in a amount double or even triple the current water levels on the planet would raise the temperature of the planet easily past what virtually every organism on a boat or not can survive. How you think that Noah much less the Ark survived a sudden astronomical termperature increase likely several hundred times survivable is delusional.
But try a simple experiment. Take a frog from a pond and drop it into a pot of water that's 500 degrees Farenheit. Does it live?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-13-2007 12:34 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 118 of 188 (385075)
02-14-2007 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by PaulK
02-13-2007 1:32 PM


Re: The Genesis Noahic Flood is a lie.
Buzz simply prefers to ignore that Baumgardner has admitted his idea of rapid plate tetonics on which Buzz is relying upon requires a miracle.
He calls the heat problems unproven because it's easier then dealing with them. You'd think plates moving at 5+ feet a year would be noticable, much less the insane amount of additional heat that would be required.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2007 1:32 PM PaulK has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 119 of 188 (385099)
02-14-2007 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Hyroglyphx
02-13-2007 12:34 PM


Re: Exegesis
nj writes:
Secondly, the Flood was supposed to have killed every living thing, save the inhabitants of the Ark, so I'm not sure why you incredulously said, relying upon geysers to produce 200% of the water on earth today results in a heat exchange high enough to kill virtually every living organism yes?
This line of argument doesn't help you!
The flood was supposed to have killed every living thing due to heat, yet somehow Noah and his animals were exempted? How could this be? Goddidit?
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-13-2007 12:34 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 120 of 188 (385117)
02-14-2007 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Hyroglyphx
02-10-2007 6:44 PM


I advanced this argument from almost an entirely scientific view. Its pretty much unquestionable that this Flood occured. I was just interested more in the motives of these schools of thought. And I wanted to see if bias was going to introduce itself. So far I've heard some very reasonable arguments.
Fear not; I sensed from your opening post that you weren't an unthinking cheerleader for a flash global flood.
I think I agree with what you say about the flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-10-2007 6:44 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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